Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

[Keith Code]

street tires

A few. The biggest one being that time spent sliding tires= increase in ability to identify and compensate for it. Good read, thanks for the link

...I agree with your point. I would be much more familiar with traction limits if I had been riding street tires at all of my trackdays... although at my current pace I would consider myself a greater liability to others. I think for my next trackday, I may drop back to C group for a day to test your theory on street tires

Yes, give it a try and remember that what you buy for "street" tires these days is as good or even better than race tires not so long ago. Three years ago, race tires went off after about 10 laps for top 600 pro riders. Newer stuff like the Dunlop N-Tec tires hold their grip longer. Point is you aren't going out on inherently dangerous tires.

I think I mentioned somewhere not long ago that one of our pro students went less than 3 seconds off pole pace at Sears on a bone stock ZX6R on Dunlop Qualifiers.

Keith

 

[Lazerus]

yah but.... he's a pro Thanks again Mr. Code

 

[Holeshot]

Pole was a 37.7 at Sears...so then he did better than a 40.7 on a bone stock ZX6R with Dunlop qualifiers? That's better than qualifying 20th almost!

 

[Gary J]

I think I mentioned somewhere not long ago that one of our pro students went less than 3 seconds off pole pace at Sears on a bone stock ZX6R on Dunlop Qualifiers. Keith

Pole was a 37.7 at Sears...so then he did better than a 40.7 on a bone stock ZX6R with Dunlop qualifiers? That's better than qualifying 20th almost!

Is this true Keith? Did one of the KSS students actually run a 1:40.7 at Infineon, on a stock ZX-6R streetbike, running street-compound Dunlop "Qualifier" tires?

And if so, please share with us the identity of this amazingly skilled rider???

 

[bikerdr]

I was there. It was this guy:

http://www.karelabraham.com/en/akt.phtml

Keith, let me know if it's not ok to be sharing that info and I'll delete it.

I didn't have a stop watch out but he was way fast. He was on a CSS bike (ZX6 w/ "Qualifiers"). When his group went out I went up into the grand stands to see where his breaking markers were so I could get a better understanding of where I could change mine... it was fun watching him.

 

[NorCal Factory]

At turn 8 at thunderhill, I moved to pass a rider that I had been following for a few laps. I noticed that he had been staying away from the inside curbing on his apexes. Set him up on the way into 6, moved to pass on the inside of 8. As I did so, he made a very "unsmooth" transistion from the far right curbing to the far left as I came along side him. I saw him coming, and squeezed the front, having to hold my line so as not to close the distance between us even sooner. ...

As a result of this instance, I made the rest of my passes for the day on the OUTSIDE. I will save the inside passes for a time when I am surrounded by riders capable of consistent lines, and close passes.... at which point, in all likelyhood, I will be the one BEING passed

Hi Lazerus,

A couple of points on your post. Turn 8 at T-Hill is a very dangerous place to pass since it is the fastest turn and people generally use the whole track in any group. Even if you had got by the person they might have been spooked and straightened it up which could lead to a 100mph + off track crash. It has happened and resulted in helicopter trips. Most trackday organizers say not to pass there during the briefing.

Regarding not passing on the inside the rest of the day - that is a bit of an over-correction. Passing on the inside done right - and not taking away the apex from someone else is very often accomplished safely on other turns like 2,3,9,10,14.

 

[rsrider]

Congrats on your new column in MOTORCYCLIST magazine.

In the Phase 5 portion, you note that the riders are hanging off further as they progress through the corner. They are obviously accelerating harder at this point in the turn (which makes the bike want to stand up) so what is the benefit of hanging off the bike as they accelerate? Aren't they spending more time outside of the bike's optimum aerodynamics?

 

[Gary J]

Congrats on your new column in MOTORCYCLIST magazine.

In the Phase 5 portion, you note that the riders are hanging off further as they progress through the corner. They are obviously accelerating harder at this point in the turn (which makes the bike want to stand up) so what is the benefit of hanging off the bike as they accelerate? Aren't they spending more time outside of the bike's optimum aerodynamics?

One of the small differences that I learned separated most "pretty fast" (club) roadracers, from a lot of the "really fast" ones (in lap times), was a very small, but special difference in technique in their riding styles.

What was that technique?

Consciously pushing the bike back into a more upright position (more on the center of the tire, while minimizing lean), while still finishing off the last (approx. 10%) portion of the turn. The process consisted of an act of almost "pushing the bike away from you", while maintaining (or even adding) body position "hang off".

- The objective?

In the case of racing; especially on a powerful liter bike (for example), the idea being to allow for beginning the actual acceleration level of "throttle roll-on" earlier (then would otherwise be possible).

- The ultimate objective?

That being to make each straight between turns just a little bit longer.

- The end result?

A higher terminal velocity at the end of each straight, and hence a shorter time between turns, and faster lap time.

I first learned of this technique when working to try to temporarily stay in contact with a few of the "really fast" guys during practice sessions on a race weekend. While doing so I was analyzing what it was they were doing differentlythen myself, that was resulting in them gradually ... but steadily ... putting distance on me over the course of each lap. When later working to consciously apply this technique, it resulted in living proof (lap time improvement) that it worked!

Closely examining a video of the top racers in the world exiting turns ........ especially those that lead onto long/fast straights ..... will also verify that this "get the bike upright early", by pushing the bike away to "stand it up early" (thanks to ending with an exaggerated body hang-off) ... while finishing off such turns ..... is a technique that is quite commonly used.

Just some food for thought, for those that may have an interest.

Disclaimer: The above info is a concept that is not applicable to the goals and objectives for riding on the street, and is purely a track ..... and moreso "race" ...... targeted technique.

Gary J

 

[Keith Code]

fast guy

I was there. It was this guy:

http://www.karelabraham.com/en/akt.phtml

Keith, let me know if it's not ok to be sharing that info and I'll delete it.

I didn't have a stop watch out but he was way fast. He was on a CSS bike (ZX6 w/ "Qualifiers"). When his group went out I went up into the grand stands to see where his breaking markers were so I could get a better understanding of where I could change mine... it was fun watching him.

No worries bikerdr,

Ya Karel went quick but it was Leon Camier in December 2006. We were running the long version of turn 7 at Sears Point which adds, conservatively, 2 1/2 seconds to the lap. Leon went 1:42 and change on a bone stock ZX6R with Dunlop Qualifiers, with student traffic.

Karel Abraham is another of our international students and wound up 8th in the 250 testing at Jerez last week on his Moto GP 250.

The Qualifiers work great in the right hands and with the correct tire pressure. A pound or two over and they spin very predictably, lay down nice darkies but that doesn't improve lap times. 28 or 29 in the rear seems to work great.

Would they work for a national Supersport race? NO, it is a street tire. On the other hand, riders wishing to gain more experience with spinning the rear tire on 600 size bikes will make quick progress in better understanding traction.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

RIder position

Congrats on your new column in MOTORCYCLIST magazine.

In the Phase 5 portion, you note that the riders are hanging off further as they progress through the corner. They are obviously accelerating harder at this point in the turn (which makes the bike want to stand up) so what is the benefit of hanging off the bike as they accelerate? Aren't they spending more time outside of the bike's optimum aerodynamics?

rsrider,

I presented that as one of the few options left to the Phase 5 rider and you can see various riders using it in different ways. Rossi is the most obvious. From the bum cam it is very obvious.

One point though. It is common misconception that bikes stand up on corner exit acceleration but they do not, never have and never will.

It is easy for most riders to confuse the widening of their riding radius (line) as they accelerate for the exit drive with what happens when they bring the bike up with bar pressure (steering).

Many things are going on with the bike in hard drive acceleration. There is a definite rise at the front and a definite rise at the rear. What happens? Wheel base increases, fork angle to the ground stretches out as well as some change in the trail. Lots going on there but the lean angle of the bike isn't changing because of them.

It is illuminating to take the NO BS bike out and put it into a lean then get onto the top bars and wind on the throttle. No change in lean angle occurs.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

The PickUp Technique

One of the small differences that I learned separated most "pretty fast" (club) roadracers, from a lot of the "really fast" ones (in lap times), was a very small, but special difference in technique in their riding styles.

What was that technique?

Consciously pushing the bike back into a more upright position (more on the center of the tire, while minimizing lean), while still finishing off the last (approx. 10%) portion of the turn. The process consisted of an act of almost "pushing the bike away from you", while maintaining (or even adding) body position "hang off".

...snip...

Gary J

Gary J,

Good observations on what has been dubbed the "Pick Up" or "Picking Up the bike". Its origins are from dirt track racing for exactly the reasons you pointed out, better drives off the turns due to a more vertical bike underneath you.

There are actually two different styles of what I was talking about in my article in "Motorcyclist". Rossi just slides over the side dropping into the bike while Danny Pedrosa, the most active rider using the technique, can be seen extending his arms pushing the bike up and away from himself. Rossi does it this way sometimes, as do others.

Both examples have a similar effect on the bike: they both lower the combined C of G, one is simply more aggressive than the other.

When we first made the "Pick Up" an official exercise in the late 80's early 90's, I had been experimenting with it on other guys I was training. Some got it easily and some could not. I was coaching Chuck Graves the year he won the F-USA title (90 or 91) and he had a lot of trouble making it work. Jamie James got it right away. Mike Smith got it. Thomas Stevens got it quickly as well.

The technique actually has 4 additional applications beside a better drive off a corner.

I did a contest about a year ago and asked the thread who they thought won it but never got any responses. Now, let's do another contest and get it right this time.

Here it is: There are a total of 5 applications for the riding technique known as the "Pick Up" loosely described as pushing the bike up and away (towards vertical) from the rider.

A set of Dunlop Qualifiers to the first person who gets all five. Superbike School Level II students, who have done the drill, are included (you aren't cheating it is a memory test).

Keith

 

[Z3n]

Gary J,

Good observations on what has been dubbed the "Pick Up" or "Picking Up the bike". Its origins are from dirt track racing for exactly the reasons you pointed out, better drives off the turns due to a more vertical bike underneath you.

There are actually two different styles of what I was talking about in my article in "Motorcyclist". Rossi just slides over the side dropping into the bike while Danny Pedrosa, the most active rider using the technique, can be seen extending his arms pushing the bike up and away from himself. Rossi does it this way sometimes, as do others.

Both examples have a similar effect on the bike: they both lower the combined C of G, one is simply more aggressive than the other.

When we first made the "Pick Up" an official exercise in the late 80's early 90's, I had been experimenting with it on other guys I was training. Some got it easily and some could not. I was coaching Chuck Graves the year he won the F-USA title (90 or 91) and he had a lot of trouble making it work. Jamie James got it right away. Mike Smith got it. Thomas Stevens got it quickly as well.

The technique actually has 4 additional applications beside a better drive off a corner.

I did a contest about a year ago and asked the thread who they thought won it but never got any responses. Now, let's do another contest and get it right this time.

Here it is: There are a total of 5 applications for the riding technique known as the "Pick Up" loosely described as pushing the bike up and away (towards vertical) from the rider.

A set of Dunlop Qualifiers to the first person who gets all five. Superbike School Level II students, who have done the drill, are included (you aren't cheating it is a memory test).

Keith

Heh, I'll take a shot at it.

I'm going to go with...

1. Better drive (freebie)
2. Being more vertical helps avoid and control sliding.
3. More vertical is better when you're riding in the wet or in situations of compromised traction.
4. Reduced stress on the tires in a corner, resulting in less tire wear.
5. Using it after corner entry to decrease the bike's lean angle while not sacrificing control. (Edit)

Well, that's my shot at it. Never been to one of your schools...one day

 

[redline]

Keith Code: Congratulations on the recurring article. I just read it. Doesn't "picking up" the bike as you describe mean that the rider was not hanging off the bike during the turn as far as he(she) could? --and then the rider is hanging off more (than he/she did during the turn) as the bike goes vertical?

If what I asked is correct, what is the advantage to the rider of hanging off less than their maximum? I ask because I thought we hang off to keep the bike more vertical, so hanging off more should be better, but based on what we see from top riders, it must not be.

(for people doing the contest, hopefully, it gives a clue about the 5 ways...)

 

[Z3n]

Keith Code: Congratulations on the recurring article. I just read it. Doesn't "picking up" the bike as you describe mean that the rider was not hanging off the bike during the turn as far as he(she) could? --and then the rider is hanging off more (than he/she did during the turn) as the bike goes vertical?

If what I asked is correct, what is the advantage to the rider of hanging off less than their maximum? I ask because I thought we hang off to keep the bike more vertical, so hanging off more should be better, but based on what we see from top riders, it must not be.

(for people doing the contest, hopefully, it gives a clue about the 5 ways...)

Let's see...the main reason i can see for people to lean off less than their maximum is because it gives better control on the controls. It's hard to brake effectively when you're all the way off the bike.

So i guess you could use it on corner entry after you've put the bike into the corner...once you've got the bike at the correct lean angle, you can "push" yourself more off the bike and use that as you approach max lean? Hmm...

(editted my previous post, i feel that that one has a better chance! )

 

[kxmike]

What the hell, I'll give the contest a shot

1. to get an earlier drive out of the corner
2. for better traction in wet/slippery conditions
3. to help contol slides (prevent highsides)
4. useful when tires are 'shagged"
5. to maintain drive while avoiding contact with another rider on the inside/ or after an abrupt line change mid turn

 

[Alexey]

Here it is: There are a total of 5 applications for the riding technique known as the "Pick Up" loosely described as pushing the bike up and away (towards vertical) from the rider.

I'll throw my name in the hat:

1. earlier drive, like everyone's already said
2. easier slide management, also been said
3. better separation of rider's mass from the bike (extra suspension, similar to getting up off the seat and keeping arms loose) -- goes hand-in-hand with 2
4. in a high speed transition: say the rider is in the middle of a left-right chicane, coming out of the left-hander. Now the rider can push hard off the left peg and "throw" his/her body to the right, hook onto the tank with left inner thigh and thereby assist in pulling the bike into the right lean.
5. I'm pretty sure if one is running out of track, pushing the bike away from you allows to continue turning without using as much track

 

[Keith Code]

Pick Up Technique

You all are getting warm. Three have been covered and someone is close on the fourth. No limit to the number of tries, this is truly democratic...

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

pick up technique

Keith Code: Congratulations on the recurring article. I just read it. Doesn't "picking up" the bike as you describe mean that the rider was not hanging off the bike during the turn as far as he(she) could? --and then the rider is hanging off more (than he/she did during the turn) as the bike goes vertical?

If what I asked is correct, what is the advantage to the rider of hanging off less than their maximum? I ask because I thought we hang off to keep the bike more vertical, so hanging off more should be better, but based on what we see from top riders, it must not be.

(for people doing the contest, hopefully, it gives a clue about the 5 ways...)

redline,

They are hanging off already. The problem? At what point does hanging off become a problem when it is over-exaggerated. That is a good question and deserves an answer. What do you think is the answer?

Keith

 

[Burning1]

redline,

They are hanging off already. The problem? At what point does hanging off become a problem when it is over-exaggerated. That is a good question and deserves an answer. What do you think is the answer?

Keith

• If a rider hangs off too far, he may loose his footing on the outside peg of the bike. The outside peg is the rider's main pivot point for moving the body on and off the motorcycle.
• If the rider is still at an extreme lean angle and he hangs off too far, his leathers will begin to drag along the road.
• If he hangs off too far (especially at shallow lean angles) centrifugal force may not be strong enough to keep the rider firmly planted on the bike. This may cause the rider to inadvertently manipulate the controls, or shift his weight in such a way as to upset the suspension.
• Hanging off too far may place the arms at a sub-optimal position for maximum leverage against the bars.
• Hanging off too far may make it difficult to quickly stand the bike back up, slowing the drive or spoiling entry into the next turn.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[kxmike]

attempt #2 for the contest...
1. to get earlier drive
2. better suspension compliance over rough pavement
3. to hold line when running out of traction
4. to help deal with set up/tire problems (chatter/loss of traction)
5. to help avoid bike contact with another rider (on inside) while still maintaining throttle/line.