Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

[Keith Code]

Burning, I meant to ask two things. The maximum weight a beginner bike should be and how much time a beginner should spend on exercises vs just riding around. Asking a riding master isn't a waste of anybody's time.

May be the question I should have asked Keith is what age he started riding and what was his first bike.

Whoa, you don't even want to know. There weren't many choices on bikes when I started riding. Mainly you had a Harley or a British twin, all big bikes. One of the few small bikes was a 2-stroke Harley used to see they called them Hummers. It was made in a 125cc and 165cc version. That was in 1957 when I was 12.

Keith

 

[medcheeker]

Thanks for being available to us Keith. You're an inspiration.

I don't have much experience on the track but I did Willow Springs with you and it was epic! The amount of skills I learned and processed was well worth the trip. Congrats on running such a solid crew and program.

With that said, I felt like Willow was a lil short and could maybe use some repaving. With regards to best total experience, is there a track in the states that you'd recommend over the rest? (tracks that superbike school goes to, of course)
I heard one of your riders' favorite is Virginia. Would you agree?

Thanks

 

[jmonte35]

Upgrade time or keep working with it

Ok here it goes haven't asked you anything yet but it's time for me to ask I've heard mixed feelings about my question.

I currently have an 02 F4I with racetech springs in the forks set up for my weight which is a whopping 130lbs but my shock is bone stock but with a fresh re-service. I finally have my suspension really dialed in the way I like it. I like to think my body positioning is spot on I'll post some pictures from my last track day to try and tear apart my positioning when I get home from work. So here is my question for example at Thunderhill I have gotten down to low 2 minute lap times consistently. I believe I have found the limit of my motorcycle in terms of lean angle/corner speed I obviously understand that there is always time to be made up braking and getting on the gas and lines. I recently got caught in some traffic and was pushing harder than usual trying to catch back up with a buddy by getting harder on the brakes and on the gas as quick as I could with the lines I was taking I maybe hit the 2:03-2:04 mark (which I was comfortable with but just pushing harder) while trying to catch my buddy who was running a fairly consistent 2:06-2:07 that session. I could not get anything more out of my bike dragging hard parts including fairings on my right side and peg on the left (aftermarket rearsets 1in. back 1 in. up). I know that she had more to go but hardparts are always the limit.... Its not a control issue but rather I truly think I've just hit some of the limits of this bike. I understand that some very accomplished club racers have hit the 2:00 mark on this bike in stock form but I think with the current set up I can't hit that mark and this bike has some hard miles on her that shock has probably had it. Will I really notice significant improvements with an aftermarket shock and other quick bolt on goodies? I will be racing in the AFM for a full season next year and it will be a learning season but would it be a good idea to upgrade now and begin learning a more powerful better set-up (in terms of equipment) 600. I used to have a 10 mil spacer in the shock for some added ride height but after some experimenting with tires and setup I just couldn't get the geometry/setup the way I liked it so I removed it but I did like the added ride height should I maybe go back to the drawing board and try getting my ride height up a little bit to gain some clearence. Sorry that's a mouthful but I need a good opinion in terms of improving.

 

[RhythmRider]

I'm not Keith obviously, but I do have some input. When you are entering a turn, do you feel that if you used more bar pressure, you could get the bike to turn quicker? In Keith's book, A Twist of the Wrist Vol. 2, Keith describes a technique called the quick steer. Check it out for yourself if you haven't already. I'm gonna pull it up right now and see if I can post an excerpt from it.

edit:
Here it is, a direct quote from the chapter.

What do we now know? For a given speed, the quicker you turn
your bike, the less lean-angle you use. Is it desirable to have less lean-angle?
Yes. Would it give you a safety margin to have more lean-angle
available (if needed to get around road or track hazards)? Yes. Is the bike
more stable at less lean? Yes. Could you go faster with the spare
clearance? Yes. is traction better with less lean-angle? Yes.

 

[Keith Code]

Thanks for being available to us Keith. You're an inspiration.

I don't have much experience on the track but I did Willow Springs with you and it was epic! The amount of skills I learned and processed was well worth the trip. Congrats on running such a solid crew and program.

With that said, I felt like Willow was a lil short and could maybe use some repaving. With regards to best total experience, is there a track in the states that you'd recommend over the rest? (tracks that superbike school goes to, of course)
I heard one of your riders' favorite is Virginia. Would you agree?

Thanks

For sure, VIR is a very, very fun track, I personally love to ride there, it flows, it goes, it has enough variety. I happen to also like the Streets because of its quirky and busy nature. Good for training, mistake show up quickly and tend to snowball.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

Ok here it goes haven't asked you anything yet but it's time for me to ask I've heard mixed feelings about my question.

I currently have an 02 F4I with racetech springs in the forks set up for my weight which is a whopping 130lbs but my shock is bone stock but with a fresh re-service. I finally have my suspension really dialed in the way I like it. I like to think my body positioning is spot on I'll post some pictures from my last track day to try and tear apart my positioning when I get home from work. So here is my question for example at Thunderhill I have gotten down to low 2 minute lap times consistently. I believe I have found the limit of my motorcycle in terms of lean angle/corner speed I obviously understand that there is always time to be made up braking and getting on the gas and lines. I recently got caught in some traffic and was pushing harder than usual trying to catch back up with a buddy by getting harder on the brakes and on the gas as quick as I could with the lines I was taking I maybe hit the 2:03-2:04 mark (which I was comfortable with but just pushing harder) while trying to catch my buddy who was running a fairly consistent 2:06-2:07 that session. I could not get anything more out of my bike dragging hard parts including fairings on my right side and peg on the left (aftermarket rearsets 1in. back 1 in. up). I know that she had more to go but hardparts are always the limit.... Its not a control issue but rather I truly think I've just hit some of the limits of this bike. I understand that some very accomplished club racers have hit the 2:00 mark on this bike in stock form but I think with the current set up I can't hit that mark and this bike has some hard miles on her that shock has probably had it. Will I really notice significant improvements with an aftermarket shock and other quick bolt on goodies? I will be racing in the AFM for a full season next year and it will be a learning season but would it be a good idea to upgrade now and begin learning a more powerful better set-up (in terms of equipment) 600. I used to have a 10 mil spacer in the shock for some added ride height but after some experimenting with tires and setup I just couldn't get the geometry/setup the way I liked it so I removed it but I did like the added ride height should I maybe go back to the drawing board and try getting my ride height up a little bit to gain some clearence. Sorry that's a mouthful but I need a good opinion in terms of improving.

You need an editor or get off the speed. Seriously, I have no idea what you are running into with yours or the bike's limits, nothing jumps out as THE thing that is stopping you from making it around T'Hill quicker.

Sometimes the smallest thing can make the biggest difference, sometimes it takes a really big change in a rider to make a difference. Someone could watch you, at any track, and figure out which it is, the bike or you. But let me warn you...blaming the bike is something that isn't done anymore, it's what the Brits call whinging. Look at your basics, look at your throttle control, your lines, your quick or slow flicking of the bike and whatever you do, just work on one aspect of it in any session on the track. Keep it simple.

If you had video, we could sort this out quickly.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

I'm not Keith obviously, but I do have some input. When you are entering a turn, do you feel that if you used more bar pressure, you could get the bike to turn quicker? In Keith's book, A Twist of the Wrist Vol. 2, Keith describes a technique called the quick steer. Check it out for yourself if you haven't already. I'm gonna pull it up right now and see if I can post an excerpt from it.

edit:
Here it is, a direct quote from the chapter.

I don't remember posting that.

KC

 

[Redfox]

Keith-
Hows it going my friend? I have a question about how to work on some basics, regarding control and practicing fluid inputs to be smooth and sharp. I think of riding as something where precise and refined thinking is key. accurate and acuteness, form and flexibility, are all vital keys to being succesful on a 2 wheeled machine. With that said, how do i get there?

When im on the bike I feel like there is so much to think about in terms of refining my skills, and so much to work on as far as making good habits engraved in stone, that Im not doing myself any good by over thinking everything. I obviously know this becuase progress feels slow. I feel like im trying to do too much at once and im having problems about how I should lay out a good foundation and work from there. I just did my first track at laguna seca and have about 10,000 miles under my belt and currently riding a 600cc sport bike.

My biggest issues are looking through the turn and how to prepare a good entry and exit through a turn. Ive read the pace and some of your publishings but Im not making correct progress which can be directly be felt in my riding. I think its probably beneficial to have someone follow me around and mentor me a bit but, as far as inputs go, i feel like a late apex is hard to achieve where my body and bike is moving in a glowing way. Something just isnt completing the puzzle correctly.

Thanks for any information you can send my way Keith

 

[Yody]

Ok here it goes haven't asked you anything yet but it's time for me to ask I've heard mixed feelings about my question.

I currently have an 02 F4I with racetech springs in the forks set up for my weight which is a whopping 130lbs but my shock is bone stock but with a fresh re-service. I finally have my suspension really dialed in the way I like it. I like to think my body positioning is spot on I'll post some pictures from my last track day to try and tear apart my positioning when I get home from work. So here is my question for example at Thunderhill I have gotten down to low 2 minute lap times consistently. I believe I have found the limit of my motorcycle in terms of lean angle/corner speed I obviously understand that there is always time to be made up braking and getting on the gas and lines. I recently got caught in some traffic and was pushing harder than usual trying to catch back up with a buddy by getting harder on the brakes and on the gas as quick as I could with the lines I was taking I maybe hit the 2:03-2:04 mark (which I was comfortable with but just pushing harder) while trying to catch my buddy who was running a fairly consistent 2:06-2:07 that session. I could not get anything more out of my bike dragging hard parts including fairings on my right side and peg on the left (aftermarket rearsets 1in. back 1 in. up). I know that she had more to go but hardparts are always the limit.... Its not a control issue but rather I truly think I've just hit some of the limits of this bike. I understand that some very accomplished club racers have hit the 2:00 mark on this bike in stock form but I think with the current set up I can't hit that mark and this bike has some hard miles on her that shock has probably had it. Will I really notice significant improvements with an aftermarket shock and other quick bolt on goodies? I will be racing in the AFM for a full season next year and it will be a learning season but would it be a good idea to upgrade now and begin learning a more powerful better set-up (in terms of equipment) 600. I used to have a 10 mil spacer in the shock for some added ride height but after some experimenting with tires and setup I just couldn't get the geometry/setup the way I liked it so I removed it but I did like the added ride height should I maybe go back to the drawing board and try getting my ride height up a little bit to gain some clearence. Sorry that's a mouthful but I need a good opinion in terms of improving.

I asked Andy Carmen the same thing, he said once you start getting down to mid 1:50's at T-hill that the F4I is incapable of going ifaster. Nicky Hayden as well raced a (obviously non-stock) F4I and did very well.

You are far from exploiting what your F4I has to offer.

You my friend, are at the limit of YOUR skills NOT the bike

Three parts to the turn; entry, apex, exit

break those down and start working on one and improving it, and get a laptime for christ sake, no more guessing 2:03's

You can raise the frontend(lower forks in triple) and raise the rearend and then make riser plates for the rearsets if you think you need more lean angle. But I've never heard of being able to lean a bike more as the answer to going faster



My recommendation from what I've seen in your posts if for you to go to a track school, and make sure its NOT at T-hill(well this isn't totally relevant but going to a "fast way around T-hill" school probably wouldn't be ideal at this stage). This will break you down to your fundamentals and you're flaws will be much more apparent on a track that you're not familiar on which will help the instructors identify what you need to work on which will in turn allow you to go faster

PS, don't listen to Keith, speed is good for you

 

[RhythmRider]

I don't remember posting that.

KC

Cocaine is a helluva drug.

 

[jmonte35]

You need an editor or get off the speed. Seriously, I have no idea what you are running into with yours or the bike's limits, nothing jumps out as THE thing that is stopping you from making it around T'Hill quicker.

Sometimes the smallest thing can make the biggest difference, sometimes it takes a really big change in a rider to make a difference. Someone could watch you, at any track, and figure out which it is, the bike or you. But let me warn you...blaming the bike is something that isn't done anymore, it's what the Brits call whinging. Look at your basics, look at your throttle control, your lines, your quick or slow flicking of the bike and whatever you do, just work on one aspect of it in any session on the track. Keep it simple.

If you had video, we could sort this out quickly.

Keith

I know I need an editor badly....just running into some issues and was trying to gain some knowledge of a way to reduce the lean angle while keeping the same speed I've experemented with my suspension quite a bit it's not that my bike or I can't handle the speed in a corner but I've found that hard parts are dragging more often which is limiting my speed cornering the bike. I agree that cornering is not the only thing that gets you around the track faster and I'm fairly certain in a racing application I can shave some time off but it's not worth it for a trackday. I wouldn't say I'm in a slump but just for curiosity's sake I was curious how much better would a newer more capable bike be for me. Would I notice significant time drop do you believe that I should stick it out with old yellar for a racing season. Some have said to me that even the jump to lets say a well set up 05-06 600 I will have significant improvement in lap times. I would love to make it to your CSS and get a fresh start I'm just sick of hearing from instructors that I'm doing things right and not getting the feedback I need.

Here is a link to some recent trackday pictures please if you see something let me know as to what I could do better in terms of BP or any red flags.

http://gotbluemilk.com/web081027/351/index.html

 

[afm199]

Burning, I meant to ask two things. The maximum weight a beginner bike should be and how much time a beginner should spend on exercises vs just riding around. Asking a riding master isn't a waste of anybody's time.

May be the question I should have asked Keith is what age he started riding and what was his first bike.

Keith probably started riding on a sixties english bike, which has no counterpart today. The no longer make bikes with frames out of cast iron, brakes that work like two fingers grabbing an oily plate, and parts that fall off going around the block.

 

[T100]

I am also a new rider and am wondering about my choice for a first bike, which is what I bought and have been riding. Triumph Bonneville.

I was surprised to see Code's recomm. of a Ducati Monster as a good choice for a new rider.

Does the Monster have easier corner/handling aspects than the bike I chose?
I know that it's lighter.

 

[Keith Code]

Keith-
Hows it going my friend? I have a question about how to work on some basics, regarding control and practicing fluid inputs to be smooth and sharp. I think of riding as something where precise and refined thinking is key. accurate and acuteness, form and flexibility, are all vital keys to being succesful on a 2 wheeled machine. With that said, how do i get there?

When im on the bike I feel like there is so much to think about in terms of refining my skills, and so much to work on as far as making good habits engraved in stone, that Im not doing myself any good by over thinking everything. I obviously know this becuase progress feels slow. I feel like im trying to do too much at once and im having problems about how I should lay out a good foundation and work from there. I just did my first track at laguna seca and have about 10,000 miles under my belt and currently riding a 600cc sport bike.

My biggest issues are looking through the turn and how to prepare a good entry and exit through a turn. Ive read the pace and some of your publishings but Im not making correct progress which can be directly be felt in my riding. I think its probably beneficial to have someone follow me around and mentor me a bit but, as far as inputs go, i feel like a late apex is hard to achieve where my body and bike is moving in a glowing way. Something just isnt completing the puzzle correctly.

Thanks for any information you can send my way Keith

Redfox,

You have mentioned quite a few things and it isn't productive to attack too many things at once. But let me ask you this, what good habits are you trying to engrave in stone, as you put it. Let's start out with the things you aalready know you are doing right ratner than the other way around.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

I know I need an editor badly....just running into some issues and was trying to gain some knowledge of a way to reduce the lean angle while keeping the same speed I've experemented with my suspension quite a bit it's not that my bike or I can't handle the speed in a corner but I've found that hard parts are dragging more often which is limiting my speed cornering the bike. I agree that cornering is not the only thing that gets you around the track faster and I'm fairly certain in a racing application I can shave some time off but it's not worth it for a trackday. I wouldn't say I'm in a slump but just for curiosity's sake I was curious how much better would a newer more capable bike be for me. Would I notice significant time drop do you believe that I should stick it out with old yellar for a racing season. Some have said to me that even the jump to lets say a well set up 05-06 600 I will have significant improvement in lap times. I would love to make it to your CSS and get a fresh start I'm just sick of hearing from instructors that I'm doing things right and not getting the feedback I need.

Here is a link to some recent trackday pictures please if you see something let me know as to what I could do better in terms of BP or any red flags.

http://gotbluemilk.com/web081027/351/index.html

You look great on the bike, don't mess with that at all. When you day playing with the suspension I wonder what you mean. Get someone who knows how to help you out with the settings. To start with, I assume you have already set the spring sag???

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

Keith probably started riding on a sixties english bike, which has no counterpart today. The no longer make bikes with frames out of cast iron, brakes that work like two fingers grabbing an oily plate, and parts that fall off going around the block.

Almost...the fifties...on a Harley Hummer, 125cc two stroke, went 50mph. Learned how to work on bikes from that one, never dropped it though.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

I am also a new rider and am wondering about my choice for a first bike, which is what I bought and have been riding. Triumph Bonneville.

I was surprised to see Code's recomm. of a Ducati Monster as a good choice for a new rider.

Does the Monster have easier corner/handling aspects than the bike I chose?
I know that it's lighter.

Great bike to learn the riding skills with. Monsters are, like the other bikes I mentioned, more upright seating positions. That was mainly why I recommended them.

Keith

 

[T100]

Great bike to learn the riding skills with. Monsters are, like the other bikes I mentioned, more upright seating positions. That was mainly why I recommended them.

Keith

Thanks for the reply. But do you mean that my choice for a first bike is ok as well?

BTW, I am 6'3" and 220lbs. Would switching to a Monster be wise, or should I learn with what I've got?

 

[Keith Code]

Thanks for the reply. But do you mean that my choice for a first bike is ok as well?

BTW, I am 6'3" and 220lbs. Would switching to a Monster be wise, or should I learn with what I've got?

No, no, any bike is better than no bike at all, your choice is fine.

Keith

 

[jmonte35]

You look great on the bike, don't mess with that at all. When you day playing with the suspension I wonder what you mean. Get someone who knows how to help you out with the settings. To start with, I assume you have already set the spring sag???

Keith

Ok I'm probably gonna need an editor again but here goes. My suspension was serviced and I had race tech fork springs changed for my weight by Phil at Aftershocks. He also put a 10 mil spacer in the shock mount and gave me a set up he thought I would like. I was running 208GPA's at the time. I then made a bone head move and got some Dunlop 125/195 takeoff slicks for free from Lance wow was my suspension out of whack from those babys. I worked with Dave Moss for 2 days and still couldn't get it right I removed the spacer and adjusted the forks to try and get rid of the horrible speed wobble. I ended up trashing the Dunlops and became a Michelin man and went back to the 120/180 sizes. I then worked with Jim Lindemann and we got it dialed in however I have done some geometry changes since then and my bike felt much better I raised the forks through the triples 3 mm and what a difference on how the bike handles. In hindsght I'm glad I went through all of that because it allowed me to understand what was a bad setup and a right setup and exactly how I like the bike to react. I was thinking my next move was gonna be taking a little rebound out of the rearend but not sure if that's gonna be sufficient. Is an Ohlins shock the way to get a handle on this or maybe just a fresh spring and revalve on the stock shock with 35,000 miles on her. Thanks for your help and sorry for the long read.