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re: new riders & 600's. kinda long

well i cant say my 105mph speeding ticket helps my insurance rates very much :laughing
 
lol thatll do it for ya:) lol loyalty discounts are <3 lol also state farm ftw they do it by displacement not bike style:p
 
Perfect example of a newb's mistake:
Up on Skyline, about 2 weeks experience total. Going around a right hand turn, get worried cause I think I'm going too fast when I'm actually going amazingly slow by my standards today. Get scared, grab some front brake. Bike starts to stand up, get even more worried. Ford Explorer is coming around the turn, makes matters even worse. So now I'm scared, think I'm going too fast, and don't have the experience to just lean the damn thing over. Instead I'm on and off the front brake trying to slow down, which is screwing me up even more, and luckily I didn't go head on into the Explorer 2 weeks after getting the bike.

New supersports are too much bike for newbies because you already have too much to deal with. It's not like riding a bicycle. Throw in all that power and you're just compounding the issues and setting yourself up for disaster.

When I say I had some early close calls, some were minor, but others like this almost ended my life. Start small, work your way up. You are going to drop your bike in your driveway, parking lot, or where ever else. You're probably going to crash it early on. Why not do it to a cheaper, older bike first. Learn to turn, learn the basics, then learn to use the power.
 
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Some good post here, For new rider's who think it is ok to start on a 140 mph. sportbike, maybe some will be ok, but a lot of new rider's are dropping them, it's not easy riding a bike with little clipons even for experienced riders, why do you think our insurance rates are so high in some cases 2000 bucks a year. You don't need to be a genius to know somethings out of whack, something to think about when somebody promotes a 600 cc 140mph sportbike.
 
Nit picking? There is a pretty big difference between 140 and 160.
 
I would say if your dumb enough to get a 600 or more CC bike for your first bike your going to become a Squid!! I mean even my 600 isn't really fast but crap if you look at it in terms of speed its one hell of a fast ride. Most dont understand how peppy a R6 or a RR really is for a NEW rider. The cool factor for a Newbie is great but it gives them the want to show off!! Learn to ride first then get a R6 R1 RR or what ever:thumbup:thumbup
 
I agree with most here but i learned on a 600, an OLD SLOW 600 (CBR F1), and i did fine. Yep i dropped it while parking a couple times cause the damn thing was heavy, but all in all I got a really good feel for the basics on it, and even enjoyed riding it a lot nearly 20k miles later. It was also a great, reasonably simple bike to learn to wrench on. That said I am a very mild mannered, clear thinking individual, and for those that i dont think are i say stay away from a 600. A buddy of mine (with similar personality traits, and no death wish) wanted to get into biking so I got him to take the MSF and then told him he would probably be quite happy with an 80's CBR for a while. So far he loves it, cant get enuff. He even mentioned that he was getting bored of the power, to which i replied "I highly doubt your cornering and braking abilities can outpace that bike yet, work on those before you worry about the power." Something i tell most every new rider i see. Me? Im still sortof a noob myself if you ask me, and I am 5 years, 6 bikes and over 150k on bikes. Even I still have a lot to learn.
 
Karbon,

Thanks for posting that... I had a hard time reading with all the fzcked up characters in the copy & paste job... so I did some search & replaces on the document and here's the updated version for anyone who's crazy enough to have read all the way to page 1,000 of this thread. :laughing

One of the most common questions new sport bike riders have is, "What kind of bike should I get?" This question is asked so often that I created a standardized response. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go...

Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc). In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why;

1. Knowledge of Subject Matter
When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the "beginner's mind". This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an "inside-block" was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I could not do them correctly. I had to learn what the correct elements of inside-block were, before I realized that I did not have those elements. After I learned, I was then able to aspire towards the proper elements. This example is to illustrate the point that it takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only does the beginner lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information...they also make mistakes. A ton of them.

2. The Learning Curve
While learning to do something, your first efforts are often sloppy and full of mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all else is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic...**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.
Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire (1) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground (2) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose (1). The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren't as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.

3. "But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".
Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn't cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won't severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.
Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I'm going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don't worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I'm learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn't hard to see. Be "careful" all you want, go as "slow" as you want, be as "cautious" as you want, be as "respectful" as you want...your still juggling chainsaws! The "level-headed" thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it's just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that "maturity" will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.

4. "I Don't Want a Bike I'll Outgrow"
Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get "bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.

5. "I Don't Want to Waste Money on a Bike I'll Only Have for a Short Period of Time" (i.e. cost)
Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You'll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don't care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It's usually just a big dent in your pride and...

6. EGO.
Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you've dropped it a few times. You'll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a nice R6 that you can't ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don't know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you're stressed about impressing someone with a "cool" bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not "mature enough" to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up ("matured"), revisit the idea of something with an engine.

7. "Don't Ask for Advice if You Don't Want to Hear a Real Answer".
A common pattern:
1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)
2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (as if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a "level head", or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).
4. Experienced riders explain why a "level head" isn't enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills)
5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is "mature" enough to handle a 600cc bike". (skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)
6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about "knowledge of subject matter").
7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they can really be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.
8. The truth of the matter is that Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice. What he really wanted was validation and / or approval of a choice he was about to make or already had made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride (thus defending the choice he had made). Validation of a poor decision isn't going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn't going put broken bones back together. It isn't going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn't going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.​
I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm being real. Look all over the net. You'll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You'll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the "sport" to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We want you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn't going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying "600cc bike are OK to start with". Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you've entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don't listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)
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Abunai said:
I did managed to buy and sell da 250 at the same price i got it for.
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Me too.

Seriously though, I hate it when people insist that "you're going to drop it" when you're new. News flash: not every rider drops their bike when they're a new rider. I'm not one to say that I am a professional rider after a few months, but the old adages that "you're gonna drop it when you're new" or "you're going to crash because you're new" are getting old. Not everyone exceeds their ability before they're ready. :rolleyes


And yes...I started on a 250.
 
The probabilities are high that a new rider will drop the bike. That's not a guarantee that a bike will be dropped, but the likelihood is high. Because there's a high probability that the new rider will drop the bike in some form or fashion, it's a good idea to get something that''s already got a little rash on it.

When i was a noob, I parked my bike on the side stand on a VERY hot day in an asphalt parking lot. I came out of the store twenty minutes later to find my bike on its side. I didn't drop the bike myself, but my noobliness caused the fall.

Someone told my my SV650 would have oil pressure problems if I let it idle on the side stand. The tilt of the motorcycle would cause the cylinders to lack oil. Being a complete idiot and total noob, I believed them. I used to let the bike warm up in the mornings by placing the side stand on a couple of 2x4s to keep the bike vertical. You guessed it, one morning the bike fell over. I didn't drop the bike, but my noobliness caused the fall.

There are a LOT of ways for a bike to go down due to inexperience.
 
Squidly McSmearstain said:
The probabilities are high that a new rider will drop the bike. That's not a guarantee that a bike will be dropped, but the likelihood is high. Because there's a high probability that the new rider will drop the bike in some form or fashion, it's a good idea to get something that''s already got a little rash on it.

When i was a noob, I parked my bike on the side stand on a VERY hot day in an asphalt parking lot. I came out of the store twenty minutes later to find my bike on its side. I didn't drop the bike myself, but my noobliness caused the fall.

Someone told my my SV650 would have oil pressure problems if I let it idle on the side stand. The tilt of the motorcycle would cause the cylinders to lack oil. Being a complete idiot and total noob, I believed them. I used to let the bike warm up in the mornings by placing the side stand on a couple of 2x4s to keep the bike vertical. You guessed it, one morning the bike fell over. I didn't drop the bike, but my noobliness caused the fall.

There are a LOT of ways for a bike to go down due to inexperience.
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Granted, but filling the head of someone who is new to motorcycling with the "You're going to drop the bike. Everyone does" mantra is counterproductive to them feeling comfortable with riding. :thumbdown
 
ch47dmechanic said:
Granted, but filling the head of someone who is new to motorcycling with the "You're going to drop the bike. Everyone does" mantra is counterproductive to them feeling comfortable with riding. :thumbdown
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We should let it be a surprise then?
 
flying_hun said:
We should let it be a surprise then?
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Telling someone you will and telling them you might are very different and one is more productive than the other. Being positive reinforces training measures and makes the new rider more confident instead of hellbent on wondering when the day is going to come that they're going to "make the typical newbie mistake and drop the bike".
 
ch47dmechanic said:
Telling someone you will and telling them you might are very different and one is more productive than the other. Being positive reinforces training measures and makes the new rider more confident instead of hellbent on wondering when the day is going to come that they're going to "make the typical newbie mistake and drop the bike".
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I see your point, however much of this came up in the context of those "hi-I'm-a-n00b-should-I-get-an-r1?" threads. In that case I don't really care if I damage the fragile self-esteem of a new rider who is looking for enablers to justify a bad choice. It's the lesser of two evils. If they are looking at a supersport for a first bike, their main problem is not a lack of confidence.

I don't have the facts readily at hand (calling DataDan), but my guess is that a substantial majority of new riders find their bike in a non-vertical orientation sometime during the first year of ownership. There are big differences in the implications of dropping a 250 Rebel and dropping a Desmosedici (calling Moike). An extreme comparison, but it illustrates the point.
 
flying_hun said:
I see your point, however much of this came up in the context of those "hi-I'm-a-n00b-should-I-get-an-r1?" threads. In that case I don't really care if I damage the fragile self-esteem of a new rider who is looking for enablers to justify a bad choice. It's the lesser of two evils. If they are looking at a supersport for a first bike, their main problem is not a lack of confidence.

I don't have the facts readily at hand (calling DataDan), but my guess is that a substantial majority of new riders find their bike in a non-vertical orientation sometime during the first year of ownership. There are big differences in the implications of dropping a 250 Rebel and dropping a Desmosedici (calling Moike). An extreme comparison, but it illustrates the point.
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Given the R1 threads, then yes, I understand your point. :D
 
I agree that new riders need tame bikes. My bike is a 650, but it's pretty tame. If I had had my heart set on a sports bike, it would have been Ninja 250 all the way. FWIW, I've found the KLR to be pretty forgiving and decently torquey or unsurprising when I get it in the wrong gear. I respect it but I'm not afraid of it. A friend who has been riding for 30 years rode it home for me and told me it's a great beginner's bike, which agreed with everything I read before I bought it.

In short, when you speak of displacement, you really are using a metric for bike tameness. But displacement doesn't define a bike, and my 650 would prolly fit your criteria for a sane starter bike.
 
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