Rear Wheel Slippage

[tzrider]

It can take away lean angle too, which might be what he meant. I can’t tell.

 

[Holeshot]

"Steering then"? I'm probably confused on what he meant too.

 

[ScottRNelson]

I don't see "this" mentioned as of yet here...
the technique that makes an experienced rider ride over slippery stuff and not crash is that of "counter-steering"... when the slippery stuff is found / visualized - an experienced rider will adjust trajectory of the bike for some counter-steering which will keep the bike upright over the slippy stuff.

My goal when going over lower traction conditions is to get the bike as upright as possible before getting there, then don't make any moves until I get to where there is more traction again. That definitely means getting the bike as vertical as possible, aim straight, get off of the gas and brakes, and maybe even pull in the clutch. I'm confused as to where counter-steering fits into all of this other than maybe using it to help get the bike as upright as possible.

I think your post has confused most of the rest of us here.

 

[tzrider]

Scott, my approach is similar except that I normally continue to roll on the gas gradually to help stabilize the bike and optimize traction.

 

[Enchanter]

If I had to guess, he’s not using the most common definition of counter-steering.

 

[stangmx13]

I don't see "this" mentioned as of yet here...
the technique that makes an experienced rider ride over slippery stuff and not crash is that of "counter-steering"... when the slippery stuff is found / visualized - an experienced rider will adjust trajectory of the bike for some counter-steering which will keep the bike upright over the slippy stuff.
... just like a skier in the mountains is constantly adjusting trajectory of skis over ice or slush, where you look and where you want to go need to coincide together.
the counter-steering skills are best learned on smaller bikes and usually in the dirt where it really just becomes "natural"... can even be learned on a bicycle.

The commonly accepted definition of countersteering boils down to "push left, go left". More specifically, it means "turning the bars in one direction causes a lean angle change in the other direction". This does not line up with your post. What do you mean when you said countersteering?

 

[NorCalCoffeeMan]

Newbie here... Man, I was taking long, wide curves at 45 for a while. Watched tons of videos and Twist of the Wrist...got comfortable with the steady throttle and positioning and that changed my world!

 

[VroomVroomVroom]

CounterSteering is the same as it is in a car.
You are picking the bike up a little sacrificing your intended tighter trajectory to allow the wheels to slide over something easier and not allow the bike (in this case) to fall further towards the ground.

CounterSteering is changing the arc of your turn to a wider arc, either with a slide or picking up the bike.

Make sense now?

 

[ScottRNelson]

CounterSteering is the same as it is in a car.
You are picking the bike up a little sacrificing your intended tighter trajectory to allow the wheels to slide over something easier and not allow the bike (in this case) to fall further towards the ground.

CounterSteering is changing the arc of your turn to a wider arc, either with a slide or picking up the bike.

Make sense now?

Nope. Now it's more confusing than ever.

 

[stangmx13]

CounterSteering is the same as it is in a car.
You are picking the bike up a little sacrificing your intended tighter trajectory to allow the wheels to slide over something easier and not allow the bike (in this case) to fall further towards the ground.

CounterSteering is changing the arc of your turn to a wider arc, either with a slide or picking up the bike.

Make sense now?

That is not the accepted definition of countersteering when it comes to 2-wheeled vehicles. For cars, someone may say that they countersteer into a slide - most would probably say they turned into the slide. But we never say that for motos because the term is already used for something else. Think of a new term for what you are talking about so you don't confuse everyone (more).

No one would ever say that picking the bike up IS countersteering (with either definition). You can countersteer to pick the bike up, but they are not the same thing. Nor would anyone say widening your turning radius IS countersteering. Widening your turning radius is an effect caused by a steering or throttle input. Sorry this became a semantics conversation, but it was needed.

I agree with your original post that turning less and/or reducing lean angle can be a good way to reduce the risks of a slippery surface. Unfortunately your mixing of terms made that point very unclear.

 

[CDONA]

Countersteering on a standup Jetski will make you look like a putz.
It took me years to find out why

 

[stangmx13]

Countersteering on a standup Jetski will make you look like a putz.
It took me years to find out why

Oooo interesting. I don't countersteer my boat either and it leans into turns a little. I gotta look this one up.

Looks like force at the rudder pushes outwards, but it's below the center of mass so the craft leans inwards. Is this also the case for jetskis with their jet and different center of mass?

 

[Holeshot]

CDONA's got it. Jetskii's use directed nozzle thrust to turn them. Off throttle, add lean or weight (or both), turn the bars into the turn and add throttle. It's funny putting my moto friends on standups and watching them turn the wrong way and fall off the outside of the ski.

I learned to jetski when I was around 6-7. This is probably the reason I don't use a whole lot of bar input to turn a bike, unless absolutely needed (S's at Sonoma, etc.). Bar pressure is almost always pretty low for me.

 

[tzrider]

And then there’s snowmobiles. On hardpack, you’d generally steer it like an ATV. In powder you can countersteer to lean it, then relax on the bars and let it carve.

 

[stangmx13]

I learned to jetski when I was around 6-7. This is probably the reason I don't use a whole lot of bar input to turn a bike, unless absolutely needed (S's at Sonoma, etc.). Bar pressure is almost always pretty low for me.

I'm always a little surprised when riders take any approach other than "apply the bare minimum". You want to work harder than required? Why? Maybe it's because some are making the assumption that "more == faster".

The only hard bar input story I have is Phil Hill at BW on my 04' CBR600RR. That bike was a tank, I was a first year racer, and the setup likely wasn't good. It took a ton of bar pressure to make the left at the bottom of the hill. I felt I was using every shoulder, back, and arm muscle to get it done in time. The issue was gone on later bikes.

 

[CDONA]

There I am, all planed out, and cruising. Water smooth, sunny & warm, just traveling, wind in your face, all calm & happy.
Add just a small course correction, Without Thinking, and biff, in the water

 

[zanshin]

Scott, my approach is similar except that I normally continue to roll on the gas gradually to help stabilize the bike and optimize traction.

I won't presume the goal function that's being optimized above, but my goal function in an "on tiptoes" situation is generally not to lose the front, and to help it bite, it needs weight transfer without using up its own traction by (front) braking -- thus, dragging rear brake for the win.

I'd rather the front stay planted, and modulate the rear brake / steer into the rear slide as needed.

Around here, ice is my personal nightmare; gritting sand accumulations where car tires don't travel, at the start of the season; and during harvest season especially, hydraulic fluid on the backroads where equipment travels between fields. Normally it's fine, but if there's a leak.. look out. There are gallons and gallons of the stuff in ag machinery (e.g. JD 9 series huge tractor - 50+ gallons). Even for my small tractor, I get it in 5 gallon pails.