Recessed Ceiling Lighting Woes

[ctwo]

The landlord had some remodeling done before I moved here and they installed these 4-pin CFL type recessed lighting in the ceiling. These have been the most irritating lighting solution due to the CFL bulbs not lasting, going dim prematurely, and flickering - and they are relatively expensive. They usually crumble when taking them out too.

I was happy to find LED replacements (FEIT PL26E/V/841/LED), even though they are $11 at Home Depot. They worked just fine and had good light intesity. I was willing to deal with the diffusers falling off and bouncing around on the tile or hardwood floor at 3am - that just makes life more interesting.

But one of these new bulbs burned up. I determined it is a surge protection or inrush current limiting device that failed (MOV or NTC?). I bought a couple new bulbs of the exact same part, but neither one of them work in any of my working fixtures. I can image being unlucky and getting a defect, but two in a row?

I contacted FEIT electric directly since they provide their email on the packaging, info@feit.com. They responded that they do not make the CFL bulb and I should contact the manufacturer, bulbconnection.com. Period. What a bunch of goons.

The ideal solution would be that the FEIT bulbs just worked as they should, but I'm concerned none of the new ones will work, and I'm not sure why? I also have not found another manufacture of an LED replacement of this type.

I could just buy a pack of CFL bulbs and deal with their crappy performance, but I'm also inclined to rid myself of this scourge and just rip out all of these stupid fixtures and install standard Edison screw in fixtures. I have not checked, but I expect the Romex house wire to terminate at a ballast that is screwed to a joist about a foot away from the light fixture. More Joy of Life!

What would you do?

 

[afm199]

The recessed fluros will be one piece cans, just like recessed incandescent or low voltage. The ballast will be integral to the fixture, not remote. Probably on one side of the Jbox on the fixture that you do your splicing in. You may be able to remove each one and replace if the wire is long enough, but that will mean patching and painting. I suggest trying LED substitutes for the fluor bulbs from another manufacturer if you can find one.

 

[Climber]

Just replace the whole fixture, getting those LED work-around is just putting a bandaid on the real problem.

I know what you mean about them sucking, our house had a bunch in the bathrooms and it sucked how long it would take them to come on. It was such a relief when I replaced them all.

Edit, meant to say replace them with LED fixtures.

 

[afm199]

Thing to remember is that the only reason they were installed in California is to meet Title 14 requirements (IIRC the name, and the reason is to provide energy efficient lighting in residences, which means kitchen and bathroom always get LED or Fluro.) So removing and replacing with incandescent means the landlord may end up having to strip out anything you put in. If I were the landlord I'd be pissed if a tenant took out energy efficient lighting just because of the legal/liability issues.

 

[Eldritch]

The landlord had some remodeling done before I moved here and they installed these 4-pin CFL type recessed lighting in the ceiling. These have been the most irritating lighting solution due to the CFL bulbs not lasting, going dim prematurely, and flickering - and they are relatively expensive. They usually crumble when taking them out too.

I was happy to find LED replacements (FEIT PL26E/V/841/LED), even though they are $11 at Home Depot. They worked just fine and had good light intesity. I was willing to deal with the diffusers falling off and bouncing around on the tile or hardwood floor at 3am - that just makes life more interesting.

But one of these new bulbs burned up. I determined it is a surge protection or inrush current limiting device that failed (MOV or NTC?). I bought a couple new bulbs of the exact same part, but neither one of them work in any of my working fixtures. I can image being unlucky and getting a defect, but two in a row?

I contacted FEIT electric directly since they provide their email on the packaging, info@feit.com. They responded that they do not make the CFL bulb and I should contact the manufacturer, bulbconnection.com. Period. What a bunch of goons.

The ideal solution would be that the FEIT bulbs just worked as they should, but I'm concerned none of the new ones will work, and I'm not sure why? I also have not found another manufacture of an LED replacement of this type.

I could just buy a pack of CFL bulbs and deal with their crappy performance, but I'm also inclined to rid myself of this scourge and just rip out all of these stupid fixtures and install standard Edison screw in fixtures. I have not checked, but I expect the Romex house wire to terminate at a ballast that is screwed to a joist about a foot away from the light fixture. More Joy of Life!

What would you do?

Change the bloody fixture.

 

[Bay Arean]

Just replace the whole fixture, getting those LED work-around is just putting a bandaid on the real problem.

I know what you mean about them sucking, our house had a bunch in the bathrooms and it sucked how long it would take them to come on. It was such a relief when I replaced them all.

Edit, meant to say replace them with LED fixtures.

We remodeled last March and put in about 10 LED fixtures. They are just a few inches tall (above the celing) and snap in so easy it's just stupid. You can lay insulation right over em if you want (though I didnt). The high quality ones can run up to $15 a piece, there's a cheapo at HD that's like $5 a pieces. These aren't the tall cans of yore, just little damn things that weigh nothing. They are held in by springs that sit atop the sheetrock. They have a little box that converts the voltage that can sit anywhere nearby.

This is assuming you have attic access, I dunno. You might even be able to do the whole thing from underneath once you take out the other.

 

[motomania2007]

We remodeled last March and put in about 10 LED fixtures. They are just a few inches tall (above the celing) and snap in so easy it's just stupid. You can lay insulation right over em if you want (though I didnt). The high quality ones can run up to $15 a piece, there's a cheapo at HD that's like $5 a pieces. These aren't the tall cans of yore, just little damn things that weigh nothing. They are held in by springs that sit atop the sheetrock. They have a little box that converts the voltage that can sit anywhere nearby.

This is assuming you have attic access, I dunno. You might even be able to do the whole thing from underneath once you take out the other.

I have recessed cans in my kitchen and they are horrid on lights It doesn't matter what I put in they tend to burn them up. so I'm looking at an upgrade on all those cans and they're the traditional deep cans about 10 or so inches tall so this sounds like a really interesting solution something small that I can just pop in.

 

[afm199]

We remodeled last March and put in about 10 LED fixtures. They are just a few inches tall (above the celing) and snap in so easy it's just stupid. You can lay insulation right over em if you want (though I didnt). The high quality ones can run up to $15 a piece, there's a cheapo at HD that's like $5 a pieces. These aren't the tall cans of yore, just little damn things that weigh nothing. They are held in by springs that sit atop the sheetrock. They have a little box that converts the voltage that can sit anywhere nearby.

This is assuming you have attic access, I dunno. You might even be able to do the whole thing from underneath once you take out the other.

I'd be EXTREMELY careful with those. They are not listed for insulation, AFAIK, and the "box that converts the voltage" is probably not listed for that application either. I'm speaking as an electrical contractor with many decades of experience.

 

[Bay Arean]

I have recessed cans in my kitchen and they are horrid on lights It doesn't matter what I put in they tend to burn them up. so I'm looking at an upgrade on all those cans and they're the traditional deep cans about 10 or so inches tall so this sounds like a really interesting solution something small that I can just pop in.

These are the ones we got, more expensive than I remembered (sorry for exaggerating). The cabinet guy saw em, and pulled out much cheaper ones from HD but I was happy with what we got. The regular wiring goes into the metal box. Technically, the boxes are supposed to be mounted, I guess, but ours are just laying on the ceiling above. You do have to pick a correct wall switch to use the dim function but that's easy enough anymore. They don't get hot at all. It's amazing. I can't find the super-cheap ones the contractor showed me that day, but they must be around somewhere.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Halo-White...cessed-Light-Kit-Fits-Opening-7-in/1001772232

 

[PaleHorse]

I have recessed cans in my kitchen and they are horrid on lights It doesn't matter what I put in they tend to burn them up. so I'm looking at an upgrade on all those cans and they're the traditional deep cans about 10 or so inches tall so this sounds like a really interesting solution something small that I can just pop in.

I just installed a dozen of them in the house last month. They went in easy but take some finesse getting them to sit flush. The spring clips that hold them to the drywall are not that strong. I cleared all of the insulation around the fixtures as they are not rated for contact with insulation. They do function well when used with a line voltage dimmer switch.

These are the HD specials but mine have the driver attached to the back of the fixture. FWIW, I've been a union electrician for over 20 years. These are the best bang for the buck. There is also a model that you can change the color output but I opted not to go that route.

 

[Climber]

Don't buy the cheapest ones from Amazon, some of the shit that I've seen that they sell is just astonishing in how badly they are designed and built.

I bought some coffee mugs that plugged into the cigarette lighter fixture in a car. It came with two, both failed in less than a week. When I disassembled one it had 18 gauge wire looped back and forth and held down with masking tape with no circuitry to provide any safety or conversion of the current whatsoever! It was a very effective firestarter more than anything else.

 

[afm199]

These are the ones we got, more expensive than I remembered (sorry for exaggerating). The cabinet guy saw em, and pulled out much cheaper ones from HD but I was happy with what we got. The regular wiring goes into the metal box. Technically, the boxes are supposed to be mounted, I guess, but ours are just laying on the ceiling above. You do have to pick a correct wall switch to use the dim function but that's easy enough anymore. They don't get hot at all. It's amazing. I can't find the super-cheap ones the contractor showed me that day, but they must be around somewhere.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Halo-White...cessed-Light-Kit-Fits-Opening-7-in/1001772232

Those are nice little retrofits and new to me, a direct swap, very cool. I do not see an "Type IC" rating on them and would not cover them with insulation.

 

[Bay Arean]

I'd be EXTREMELY careful with those. They are not listed for insulation, AFAIK, and the "box that converts the voltage" is probably not listed for that application either. I'm speaking as an electrical contractor with many decades of experience.

They have been fine so far. I trimmed the insulation away anyway (the foil kind is what you can supposedly put over them) and I don't care about that amount of heat loss. I thought about a custom housing up there but that's just me doin me.

They were installed by a licensed electrical contractor as part of the job, including new service and everything but they are on DIY level if a person has ever done boxes and stuff. They chain together too very easily. I got like seven on one circuit. I spent the money on the version with the five color settings, but ended up choosing the warmest setting. I love the energy conservation aspect but the cooler LED light levels are kinda evil and blinding..


.

 

[afm199]

They have been fine so far. I trimmed the insulation away anyway and I don't care about that amount of heat loss.

They were installed by a licensed electrical contractor as part of the job, including new service and everything.

I've testified in court over work done by licensed contractors that started fires. Ernie's rule is that one out of five licensed contractors belong in jail, and one out of three should never be permitted to do a job over $10k.

Not trying to freak you, as long as they are not installed in a way that holds heat in ( buried in insulation) they are probably ok. But those ballasts and lamps can get hot, and if they do, insulation is a no no.

 

[Climber]

8.7 watts doesn't generate much heat at all.

 

[Bay Arean]

I just installed a dozen of them in the house last month. They went in easy but take some finesse getting them to sit flush. The spring clips that hold them to the drywall are not that strong. I cleared all of the insulation around the fixtures as they are not rated for contact with insulation. They do function well when used with a line voltage dimmer switch.

These are the HD specials but mine have the driver attached to the back of the fixture. FWIW, I've been a union electrician for over 20 years. These are the best bang for the buck. There is also a model that you can change the color output but I opted not to go that route.

The biggest problem we had with a line of em was fitting between the studs and spacing them so they made sense in the kitchen below. But thats true of all cans, so...I think the HALO springs are a bit better but you still have to screw with em to get them perfectly flush; they have a rubber gasket. Our attic is filled with both foil back regular and blown-in shit atop, and it's a frickin mess up there, even after trying to clear it away. I hate blow-in. Hate it. One good thing about it, is that bugs hate it too. There are no insects up there whatsoever, which blew my mind. Not even spiders.

I am glad to have the warmer LED setting that's for damn sure.Not sure what the singles are set at....

 

[afm199]

8.7 watts doesn't generate much heat at all.

Nope. I just abhor the idea of any heat source powered by electricity being installed in a place that it was not designed for. I've seen so many, many bad things happen.

 

[Climber]

Nope. I just abhor the idea of any heat source powered by electricity being installed in a place that it was not designed for. I've seen so many, many bad things happen.

I'll bet you have. I've seen some of those solutions back in New England where a lot of the houses are more than 100 years old. Ever see a bunch of glass insulators with wires run through them, often bare copper wires, going throughout the attic?

At least with the LED stuff these days the wattage is so small. I've seen nightlights, in the old days, that got much hotter than most LED bulbs.

 

[afm199]

I'll bet you have. I've seen some of those solutions back in New England where a lot of the houses are more than 100 years old. Ever see a bunch of glass insulators with wires run through them, often bare copper wires, going throughout the attic?

At least with the LED stuff these days the wattage is so small. I've seen nightlights, in the old days, that got much hotter than most LED bulbs.

Yup. LED's are a great new light source.

 

[DannoXYZ]

I'll bet you have. I've seen some of those solutions back in New England where a lot of the houses are more than 100 years old. Ever see a bunch of glass insulators with wires run through them, often bare copper wires, going throughout the attic?

At least with the LED stuff these days the wattage is so small. I've seen nightlights, in the old days, that got much hotter than most LED bulbs.

yup, aka K&T - knob & tube wiring. Due to stupid anti-growth policies by blue-hairs, I saw tonnes of that in every place I lived in Santa Barbara. Scary to look at and even scarier to rip out & upgrade.