Religious discussion... WARNING: Not for overly sensitive religious people.

[n10sive]

As a scientist, I find it distressing that both religious and non-religious folks generally seem to view science and religion as either incompatible or non-complementary pursuits. Science doesn't prove religion wrong, or vice versa. But religious zealots who use arguments like, "oh dark matter...explain that...you can't so God must exist," do nothing but create an unnecessary schism between science and religion. Bill O'Reilly said that the tides are unexplained by science and therefore prove the existence of God. The argument that the unknown proves the existence of a god is only good until scientific mysteries are solved. O'Reilly just didn't know that the tides weren't a scientific mystery.

Likewise, people who think science can answer every question, either now or in the future, are displaying a comparable amount of "faith" as any churchgoer.

Not too long ago, the clerics and shamans were also the scientists. For example, Genesis is a good account of the origin of the universe and the evolution of man if one doesn't take the details literally. Some concepts of Taoism and Buddhism are metaphorically reflected in quantum physics. The divide that has grown between the science and religion is more of an issue of control over people's minds and opinions than an issue of inherent incompatibility, IMO.

missed this earlier. Good post.

At one point in our history man didn't have science...so it must have been the work of something unknown or unseen...ergo...a God. As science starts to explain these unknowns the religious artifacts can be removed. I find those that keep saying "but science explains everything" to be a little misinformed (and vice versa). Science has not discovered EVERYTHING yet. It's constantly discovering new things, even that earlier "science" was incorrect (particle physics comes to mind). If science was an absolute, we might as well just close up shop and stop trying to learn more.

Here is one difference to me between science and religion, and why I think religion will never go away. Science is cold, dark and calculating. It lacks emotion and has no "soul." Religion provides warmth and comfort to some people. It offers them hope that life here is not just a biological fluke and therefore without meaning. You cannot simply replace ones emotions with science...not when science leaves one without hope. Having hope is not being delusional.

There are two distinct characteristics in humans. Compassion/Emotion and Logic/Critical thought. The Ying and Yang so to speak. Religion is used to fill one side for some, science for others. I think there is a place for both on our society.

 

[Godsdarling]

OK. Lets rewind this. This is where I made my comment.



THIS is not a discussion. It's an attack on a group of people, many of whom are members of this community. Imagine if someone posted in a thread about gay marriage by starting that thread with "gays are mentally defective?" It's happened here and didn't go over well did it?



Religion is not one of the sacred cows on BARF.

Bash a bike, bash a movie. Discuss religion all you want. Discussions are usually polite and involve opinions of two parties discussed in a somewhat polite and respectful manner. The above quote is not polite nor a way to start a discussion. I have had PLENTY of discussions here on religion with people before. MeanDad references one of them. I am neither a religious zealot nor an atheist. But I could not articulate, nor do I care to on here, my beliefs and my PERSONAL journey that molded them. It was MY journey, not yours. I do not care to take anyone on it and convince them it would be right for them.

But if people want to call me over sensitive to yet another group of BARFers being called out and called delusional, then so be it. I am equally sensitive to other groups of people who become the fodder for bigots and insensitive people. I won't apologize for it. This is the ONLY post I commented on. I have not said a thing about any other pro/con religious post in this thread. Some are good...some are just the same old tired platitudes you always hear.

FWIW, I have a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for Godsdarling. For nothing else that she has faced the wrath of BARF on many occasion and still just smiles. She won't be intimidated by a bunch of bullies and deserves mad props for keeping her cool and staying here. Can't say I have that same level of respect for anyone else on BARF.

Carry on. I'm making my naughty/nice list to mail to Santa Claus so you better watch out.

Aww, I love you Thank you

I could never prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists in any way that you would accept, just like you can't disapprove His existence. Miracles won't work, I have seen many people that are self-proclaimed atheists that have had miracles become "Christians" just to turn away because they liked the things of the world more.

You have to have faith. God has ALWAYS answered my prayers. Never not once has He not. I have faith. I have seen deformed arms made straight, my own husband needing a liver transplant, from one scan to the next the following day perfectly fine. I have faith. My son, sick with fevers, while praying feeling the temperature falling and he gets up to play. Again I have faith. These are only a couple of miracles in my life, I have hundreds upon hundreds. God is good, no matter what anybody says, I believe it with my entire being.

All I can do is show God's love through my life, my actions, my testimony. You will believe or not. I will never force myself on anybody. But I believe in His love, in His grace and in His mercy. And I will show that love, as Christ did, in my actions.

But if Christianity was contagious I would totally cough on all of you

 

[mrmarklin]

DISCLAIMER: If you are religiously sensitive, judgemental and cannot maintain a healthy discussion then move onto the next status, as this one isn't for you.

The questions are: How do you convince an Atheist to believe in God? Does it have to take an act of miracles? More importantly, if one does not believe in God, then is it right to judge him/her? Will s/he go to Hell?

Discuss!

UPDATE: I am not trying to convince anyone to believe in "God" lol... I am actually working myself into Atheism.. this is just a topic for discussion. Carry on!

No one can "prove" God exists. A person can only prove it to him/herself, not others.

This is done by having an open mind to the possibility, and praying for guidance and faith. It's really unlikely there will be a miracle but rather a personal spiritual manifestation that only the supplicant will receive. Since millions of people have received this experience in some personal form or another (there are a lot of believers), perhaps it could be inferred that God exists by this alone. But it's certainly not proof.

 

[asthmodeus]

Here is one difference to me between science and religion, and why I think religion will never go away. Science is cold, dark and calculating. It lacks emotion and has no "soul." Religion provides warmth and comfort to some people. It offers them hope that life here is not just a biological fluke and therefore without meaning. You cannot simply replace ones emotions with science...not when science leaves one without hope. Having hope is not being delusional.

.

hope of what? that there is a paradise waiting at the coda of this tribulation we call life if we believe in X diety and accept him/her/it as our savior?

i mean, whatever works for ya is what i say, but my idea of hope is more just staying alive to see what goes on and staying interested in life and troubling yourself with such questions as what the universe or god is is pure folly...well, it is for simple minded pricks like myself that have no possibility of truly understanding time-space continuum or string theory type shit...i don't know why so many people need that sort of concrete hope and maybe if science can eventually disprove god, then there will be a massive die-off suicide pandemic and we can knock this population bomb back down to a level that big momma earth can sustain

:|

 

[n10sive]

maybe if science can eventually disprove god, then there will be a massive die-off suicide pandemic and we can knock this population bomb back down to a level that big momma earth can sustain

I guess there is a bright side to everything now isn't there

and I cannot explain another persons hope to you. Mine isn't based on an afterlife. I don't know what is on the other side as a "fact". I'll just have to find out when I get there, or not...

 

[corndog67]

Sort of like last night with Nik Wallenda. I had to turn the sound off after a while.

 

[Ant]

How do you convince a mentally delusional person to seek help?

There are lots of church going God believing people out there that are NOT part of the hypocrates that ruin it for all. There are also a lot that are in support of gay rights and such and support you fully. Shame to paint them all with a hateful broad brush like you do. Aren't you asking for the same hate bigotry to end?

 

[jdhu]

Sort of like last night with Nik Wallenda. I had to turn the sound off after a while.

Hmm, so he made it...

 

[n10sive]

There are lots of church going God believing people out there that are NOT part of the hypocrates that ruin it for all. There are also a lot that are in support of gay rights and such and support you fully. Shame to paint them all with a hateful broad brush like you do. Aren't you asking for the same hate bigotry to end?

stop being so emo

 

[DaveT319]

Even a lot of people who are raised to believe don't seem to have had the moment that convinced them that it's "real." I have and it was weird. Nuff said.

The first sentence fits me, as I was raised in religion, but have become disillusioned with it. The principles are mostly good, but the actions of religions or in the name of religion have soured it for me. I think I still believe there is a god, but even that is diminishing as I see things that make me question his existence.

As for the second sentence: do you mind sharing your moment? I've never had one - quite the opposite in fact - so it would be interesting to hear what happened for you.

 

[mrmarklin]

As a scientist, I find it distressing that both religious and non-religious folks generally seem to view science and religion as either incompatible or non-complementary pursuits. Science doesn't prove religion wrong, or vice versa. But religious zealots who use arguments like, "oh dark matter...explain that...you can't so God must exist," do nothing but create an unnecessary schism between science and religion. Bill O'Reilly said that the tides are unexplained by science and therefore prove the existence of God. The argument that the unknown proves the existence of a god is only good until scientific mysteries are solved. O'Reilly just didn't know that the tides weren't a scientific mystery.

Likewise, people who think science can answer every question, either now or in the future, are displaying a comparable amount of "faith" as any churchgoer.

Not too long ago, the clerics and shamans were also the scientists. For example, Genesis is a good account of the origin of the universe and the evolution of man if one doesn't take the details literally. Some concepts of Taoism and Buddhism are metaphorically reflected in quantum physics. The divide that has grown between the science and religion is more of an issue of control over people's minds and opinions than an issue of inherent incompatibility, IMO.

From a theological standpoint there cannot be a conflict between God and science. But people think there is.arty

This came about from some of the dark ages stuff about the center of the solar system etc, and continues to this day with the bible in some people's opinion, contradicting evolution. Of course, its an absurdity that God can do anything that is not compatible with science. But people believe it.

EDIT: I believe in God.

 

[Bay Arean]

The first sentence fits me, as I was raised in religion, but have become disillusioned with it. The principles are mostly good, but the actions of religions or in the name of religion have soured it for me. I think I still believe there is a god, but even that is diminishing as I see things that make me question his existence.

As for the second sentence: do you mind sharing your moment? I've never had one - quite the opposite in fact - so it would be interesting to hear what happened for you.

Check yer PM. Too personal

 

[HappyHighwayman]

Why would an all powerful being want prayer? Why would it care? If you could talk to ants, would you demand their worship?

 

[Bay Arean]

Why would an all powerful being want prayer? Why would it care? If you could talk to ants, would you demand their worship?

Even tho' noone picked up on my gnostic link and phenomena this is another reason that the Gnostics believed that the God in the Garden of Eden was a lesser deity and a flawed one; that he was jealous of the higher heavenly powers and wanted all the attention, in fact needed it. Kinda reminds me of that old Star Trek episode where the Greek God needs the worship of people to stay powerful and inflated.

People 2,000 years ago couldn't buy it either.

I live with a Buddhist. She prays every day, but not seeking something. I consider it calisthenics of the mind and body link, a way to sharpen up perceptions, focus on the now. Having been with her for 15 years now, I think her "prayer" is superior to what I perceive to be most Christian prayer. All the people in her group (they are Japanese-style buddhists) seem to be fairly grounded, rational people with great purpose. I respect them, even though I find Buddhism leaves a gaping hole in what most people need in the way of having a male and female figure to worship. I truly think the latter is hardwired into us and people are cast astray when they don't honor those needs. In other words, even if there is no god or goddess, whatever, people seem to function better with someone to exalt a bit, rather than feel they are the apex beings of the Earth. I know this will cause a lot of dissent, but I think there is a way of looking at people who ignore their most basic needs as being kind of lost and vulnerable to self-destruction. The inverse way of looking at it is that some people practice a kind of self-discipline, others don't. Whether it's real or whatever seems beside the point.

 

[byke]

Why would an all powerful being want prayer? Why would it care? If you could talk to ants, would you demand their worship?

He/she/it wouldn't. Religion fails miserably by getting hung up on the details.

 

[n10sive]

Why would an all powerful being want prayer? Why would it care? If you could talk to ants, would you demand their worship?

Parallels to prayer for me between Christianity, Buddhism and Science....

Praying is like deep meditation (akin to reciting a mantra). In Christianity you are often directed by the Holy Spirit while praying (popular belief). Indians and other Wicca idioms call it a spirit guide. In Buddhism it's called your inner self, and often involves personal symbols or images. Science might aptly name it your subconscious mind, and psychiatrists can interpret most of the symbology encountered during such activities as personal things in your life and your upbringing.

I think that those in deep prayer often find "revelation" and answers to what they seek. Is it a God or just their own mind? I believe it is just your sub-conscious mind. If a person requires deep faith and prayer to achieve this...so be it. Other cultures do similar things but use mind altering drugs (i.e. Indians and peyote). Some, through practice can achieve this through straight meditation alone. Christians might "fast" to invoke an altered level of consciousness.

Connecting with your inner thoughts is not a bad thing. You just need to temper, or be able to distinguish the good thoughts from the bad thoughts. I think some of the far east meditation techniques deals with this better than other forms. This is also where Christianity fails IMO. Since you are really only dealing with your own subconscious, you are susceptible to amplifying the negative and thinking that it was 'divinely' inspired. The only concept it uses is Satan and God, but it doesn't teach you the difference. Just to "beware". This is where I think the "bad" part of religion lies.

I find the intersections of science and "mysticism" interesting. ie. Meeting someone for the first time and instantly falling in love with them, or instantly hating their guts. Is it pheromones or their Aura (energy field)? Aura's cross both the Science and the Spiritual paradigms.

Personally, I found the study of human "energy" and the mind an interesting field when I was growing up. It explained a lot to me (or at least in my own puny mind). It's also why I don't fully dismiss "religion" since it is just one of the tools to achieve a level of understanding an unknown...and the only tool available to ancient man to explain what their own brains where telling them.

 

[CoorsLight]

people seem to function better with someone to exalt a bit, rather than feel they are the apex beings of the Earth.

I guess I'm kind of just playing devil's advocate, but IMO a belief in a deity, and certainly not religion, is not required to acknowledge that human's are not the apex beings of the Earth.

The inverse way of looking at it is that some people practice a kind of self-discipline, others don't.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here, but basing one's approach to life on religious practice is not a form of self-discipline. Discipline, yes. Self-discipline, no.

 

[Beauregard]

It would be rad to talk to ants.

 

[wackyiraqi]

Why would an all powerful being want prayer? Why would it care? If you could talk to ants, would you demand their worship?

And what does god need with a starship?!

 

[tzrider]

FWIW, I have a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for Godsdarling.

+1