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Required Training for Handgun Ownership - children shooting themselves

sanjuro

sanjuro

Rider
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Location
Oaklamd
Moto(s)
GSX-R 1000
Name
Steve
I read today about a baby sitter who put her loaded handgun on a table while she napped, and the child she was watching (presumably with her sleeping eye) picked up her gun and shot himself.

The article linked several other shootings by children who found an unsecured gun.

I wish there was extensive training before buying a handgun, with a carrot of receiving a carry permit after completion. Certainly the first 2 deaths could have been avoided.

The last one was just stupid because the deputy should know better.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/texas-boy-5-fatally-shoots-gun-authorities-article-1.1493686
babysitter24n-2-web.jpg


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/girl-5-shoots-loaded-revolver-article-1.1381042
laderika25n-5-web.jpg


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ts-wife-tenn-sherrif-deputy-article-1.1311459
deputy10n-2-web.jpg


PS the other stories the kids accidentally killed someone else.
 
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I dont think training would solve the real issue that some people are just careless and absent minded. Unfortunately the results are catastrophic.
 
my son was badly burned due to a boiling water "accident" where my ex-wife claims a babysitter wasn't paying attention. That story was full of problems too. At least in this one they named the babysitter. But leaving dangerous sh*t around with toddlers, being asleep so much the toddlers had time to not only get into the situation but to carry it to it's most dangerous conclusion, boggles the mind. A caretaker that didn't even bother to be alert before taking the job, or the person who chose such an individual, needs some serious education. Unfortunately, like a lot of things, its the innocents that pay the price.
 
That kind of shit is so tragic and almost always avoidable. Gah.

California already requires handgun buyers to pass a test with questions about safe storage and a safe handling demonstration. It's minimalist, but it's something. http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo

I like to think that the increase in availability and popularity of handgun training courses (from NRA classes to Front Sight to Gunsite and beyond, even local classes near me at Chabot range) will start helping with this kind of dipshittery.
 
I think it starts with people accepting the fact that
A) Guns are here to stay
B) Laws don't keep kids/people safe

Too many people assume guns are going to be legislated into safety and it does NOT work that way.

Unfortunately, my hometown Chicago is proof positive that laws don't work with 300 deaths and 1500 injuries due to gun shots. :cry
 
Nemo Brinker said:
That kind of shit is so tragic and almost always avoidable. Gah.

California already requires handgun buyers to pass a test with questions about safe storage and a safe handling demonstration. It's minimalist, but it's something. http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo

I like to think that the increase in availability and popularity of handgun training courses (from NRA classes to Front Sight to Gunsite and beyond, even local classes near me at Chabot range) will start helping with this kind of dipshittery.
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Most gun control advocates either don't know or ignore the fact that the NRA does more to promote and teach actual practical gun safety than any other organization or person in the US.

Yakoo752 said:
I think it starts with people accepting the fact that
A) Guns are here to stay
B) Laws don't keep kids/people safe

Too many people assume guns are going to be legislated into safety and it does NOT work that way.

Unfortunately, my hometown Chicago is proof positive that laws don't work with 300 deaths and 1500 injuries due to gun shots. :cry
Click to expand...

This x1000.
 
Yakoo752 said:
I think it starts with people accepting the fact that
A) Guns are here to stay
B) Laws don't keep kids/people safe

Too many people assume guns are going to be legislated into safety and it does NOT work that way.

Unfortunately, my hometown Chicago is proof positive that laws don't work with 300 deaths and 1500 injuries due to gun shots. :cry
Click to expand...
Why do we have motorcycle licenses then? Or helmet laws? Why does MSF exist?

Owning a gun for protection is relatively safe because the real effect, making you feel safer by having a gun, is unrelated to the actual usage, firing it.

What benefit would owning a motorcycle have without riding it? And riders without training and licenses are going to be organ donors.

How many times does a civilian gun owner actually use his gun in self defense? Once in a lifetime? Imagine if every gun owner fired his or her gun once a week. Even shooting in a range environment, you would see accidental shootings skyrocket with our current requirements for training.

My attitude towards motorcycles and guns is we do need training and licensing, but when you achieve it, you should be able to do whatever you want.

If I want to carry a pistol, yes. If I want to roll at 100mph, yes.
 
Hey Sanjuro, how many times have you changed a spare tire? How many times has the average person? Do we still carry them everywhere? Who needs a spare when you can call AAA and have them there in 45 minutes to do it for you?

Sure, we have helmet laws. And licensing. And just how many people ride without a license or helmet anyway?

When was the last time you obeyed a speed limit sign and didn't just take it as a guideline? Oh, but we have plenty of laws about speeding, reckless driving, etc. Every BARFer is the perfect picture of MSF instructor professionalism on the road though right?

Riders without training and license are going to be organ donors? A few sure. Plenty end up wrecking at low speed, realizing their mistakes, and go out and buy gear and sign up for courses. When I first obtained my M1 (at 16) IIRC about 50% of the guys there showed up on literbikes and stated they were there because they'd been riding without a license and had gotten tickets/pulled over and mandated to take the MSF course, or had simply decided enough was enough and it was time to do the right thing. You even contradict your own point by stating you'll ignore the training you receive once you've completed it.

Sanjuro said:
If I want to carry a pistol, yes. If I want to roll at 100mph, yes.
Click to expand...

The MSF exists for the same reason the NRA does - to promote safety and proper usage of a mechanical object that can be used or abused.

You're extrapolating worst-case scenarios into blanket statements about gun ownership. You do realize that there are over 300 million firearms owned by well over 60 million people (at the most pessimistic estimates; realistically I'd say there are well over 80 million owners because you can't determine exact ownership without registration). We don't have thousands or tens of thousands of accidental shootings, and there are literally millions of gun owners firing daily, weekly, and monthly.
 
3 deaths are a blip; more people will slip and die in the bathroom today. They don't matter, except to the families involved.
 
I just don't understand why people have their guns with a round chambered. In the event that someone breaks into your home and you have to get your gun and fire.. if you are trained, it takes less than 1 second to chamber a round, disable the safety and fire. The risk of having an accidental discharge especially around children and untrained family members is too risky. At the very least, put it on safe.
 
jh2586 said:
I just don't understand why people have their guns with a round chambered. In the event that someone breaks into your home and you have to get your gun and fire.. if you are trained, it takes less than 1 second to chamber a round, disable the safety and fire. The risk of having an accidental discharge especially around children and untrained family members is too risky. At the very least, put it on safe.
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For the same reason we roll around red with a round chambered, selector on safe when we're deployed. It's an extra function, one extra thing that can go wrong under stress and adrenaline. What happens if the round jams when you try and chamber it? What happens if you only have 1 hand free? There is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only a negligent discharge.
 
NorCalAthlete said:
You're extrapolating worst-case scenarios into blanket statements about gun ownership. You do realize that there are over 300 million firearms owned by well over 60 million people (at the most pessimistic estimates; realistically I'd say there are well over 80 million owners because you can't determine exact ownership without registration). We don't have thousands or tens of thousands of accidental shootings, and there are literally millions of gun owners firing daily, weekly, and monthly.
Click to expand...

my guns are defective or something. they haven't killed anyone yet. One pellet gun has some bird kills from 25 years ago (defending the pie-cherry tree!) but the other one only has phone books to it's credit. the gunpowder fired ones, nothing but cans and paper targets.

Let's get really-real here. How many BARF members here own firearms, and between them how many discrete privately owned ones? How many non-LEO and non-military BARFers have injured or killed a human being with any of these firearms? We shall count accidental, intentional, and self defense incidents together to be as "fair" as possible to the naysayers.

What percent does this diverse sample of humanity, sampled and measured with our own eyes - as opposed to some group whose methods may be doubted by one political bent or the other - meet the story of "guns are inherently dangerous and/or criminal"?

Demagoguery I think, is when someone disregards the evidence of their own experience, their own eyes and ears, to follow what some stranger has told them is the truth. Even when they cannot replicate that "truth" in their own lives and experience or with their own sensorium.

we don't need to extrapolate. we'll see how it really is, among people we know really exist.

Anyone suspect that our shared experience will not reveal the "truth" that most laws and emotional responses are based on?
 
NorCalAthlete said:
Hey Sanjuro, how many times have you changed a spare tire? How many times has the average person? Do we still carry them everywhere? Who needs a spare when you can call AAA and have them there in 45 minutes to do it for you?

Sure, we have helmet laws. And licensing. And just how many people ride without a license or helmet anyway?

When was the last time you obeyed a speed limit sign and didn't just take it as a guideline? Oh, but we have plenty of laws about speeding, reckless driving, etc. Every BARFer is the perfect picture of MSF instructor professionalism on the road though right?
Click to expand...

I think you know the answers to your questions already. Especially, the California helmet law. How many riders did you see this month? How many of them were not wearing a helmet?

If I took the gun regulation comparison away, would you really be asking any of your questions?

Riders without training and license are going to be organ donors? A few sure. Plenty end up wrecking at low speed, realizing their mistakes, and go out and buy gear and sign up for courses. When I first obtained my M1 (at 16) IIRC about 50% of the guys there showed up on literbikes and stated they were there because they'd been riding without a license and had gotten tickets/pulled over and mandated to take the MSF course, or had simply decided enough was enough and it was time to do the right thing. You even contradict your own point by stating you'll ignore the training you receive once you've completed it.
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So half the MSF class received enough tickets to take mandatory training? And the beginners who crashed and survived bought gear/lessons? And the system failed there?

So what happens when a novice misfires a gun? Like he doesn't clear the action, keeps the finger on trigger, points at someone?

The MSF exists for the same reason the NRA does - to promote safety and proper usage of a mechanical object that can be used or abused.

You're extrapolating worst-case scenarios into blanket statements about gun ownership. You do realize that there are over 300 million firearms owned by well over 60 million people (at the most pessimistic estimates; realistically I'd say there are well over 80 million owners because you can't determine exact ownership without registration). We don't have thousands or tens of thousands of accidental shootings, and there are literally millions of gun owners firing daily, weekly, and monthly.
Click to expand...

I'l point this out, Vietnam's helmet law. Until 2007, there was no enforcement of the helmet law in a nation of about 20 million scooters and motorbikes, and there was approx 13000 traffic deaths. In 2008, there was a drop by 1400, more than 10%. http://www.chinapost.com.tw/asia/vietnam/2008/12/16/187848/Vietnam’s-helmet.htm

But could you point out any study sponsored by the NRA about accidental shootings? I don't think you can... N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
 
Back in the 90s California made firearm owners criminally liable if a child was able to access a firearm.

One of the first cases in Monterey County was a young boy shooting and killing his younger sister with a loaded, cocked pump shotgun left unsecured by his mother's boyfriend (with whom they lived).

The jury convicted the boyfriend, and recommended the maximum (felony) penalty (it was a "wobbler," could be misdemeanor, could be felony).

The judge instead made it a misdemeanor, because the shotgun-owning boyfriend was a prison guard; he didn't want to rob the boyfriend of his livelihood.

Pass all the laws you like, you can't fix stupid and/or negligent. The gun was the evil one, not the idiot boyfriend.
 
jh2586 said:
I just don't understand why people have their guns with a round chambered. In the event that someone breaks into your home and you have to get your gun and fire.. if you are trained, it takes less than 1 second to chamber a round, disable the safety and fire. The risk of having an accidental discharge especially around children and untrained family members is too risky. At the very least, put it on safe.
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[youtube]syxrpLbaEuY[/youtube]




any questions?
 
Good training will help the kids, who have guns at home.

My kid is 4 and has a set of air-soft guns. Goes to the range with mom and dad, following the same rules we do. He has never attempted to touch a gun without asking first.
 
Thats an excellent argument for trigger locks that will allow the user to deploy the weapon rapidly but keep unauthorized users from firing the weapon . I dont normally keep a round in the chanmber in my home defense weapons to try and keep such accidents from happening except of course the revolvers but then i dont have any children in my home at all. if i did i believe id be using a gun storage container that opens after reading an authorized users prints. in fact i might pick up a couple for the revolvers after reading this.
 
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