Riding aids. Good or Evil?

[GAJ]

For those that see ABS as a cover up for poor braking, I would remind them that if you actually engage ABS, you know it and you know that you fucked up. It's simply there when you need it and not there when you don't.

And there were a few bikes, mostly BMW's as I recall, that had poorly designed ABS systems. Those bikes aren't being made anymore.

Been riding since the early 70s and the ABS as implemented on my 2007 F800ST was horrible.

Small ripples on dry pavement while braking with the front brake would take away your front brakes and add 6 feet to anticipated stopping distance.

The BMW "solution" at the time was to dab the rear a hair before engaging the front at all times which is not how I ride.

 

[GAJ]

What would Lou say?

He ranted about moto aids all the time and thought those who liked them were pussies.

I am not like that at all.

I just got a bike with shitty ABS 14 years ago.

The majority of BARF members have been luckier and got good ABS executions.

 

[Hank Wong]

Great! Now we're into integrated front and back braking. Let's throw in the DCT while we're at it.

How much to automate and how much to leave to the pilot has always been a debate. In the late 80s and the 90s, I work on vertical take off and landing (VTOL) aircraft such as the V22 Osprey. At the time, the Marine customer general wants us (the engineers) to design the cockpit controls like an airplane rather than like a helicopter because he doesn't want V22 pilots to have to be helicopter certified. We of course say the V22 pilots will be missing out on a bunch of helicopter benefits such as a collective stick to manually control the pitch of the spinning blades. It wasn't until a couple of crashes later that the team learned to keep it simple, eliminate the helicopter features even though in the right hands these controls are wonderful. And when possible, use computer aided flight control to seamlessly add those wonderful helicopter features.

 

[dravnx]

Modern tactical aircraft cannot be flown by hand.

 

[dravnx]

I've only experienced ABS actuating once and I'm glad it worked. I was running Santa Rosa Creek Rd in Cambria on my FJR1300. The wrong tool for the job but anyway, I came over a short rise and the crappy, pot holed road dove down with a sharp right. I grabbed a fistful of brake and the ABS modulated the brakes and kept me upright. I put myself in a stupid place and was glad technology saved me.

 

[budman]

I don't think any of the Modes are cover ups for my skill set.

I may have tickled the ABS once on my Multi.
The wheelie controlled flashed the big bright red dumbass sign once too.
TC.. not sure I have ever felt it. I have it set very oddly where the wheel can basically spin when vertical and I have noted that a number of times.

The rest just maybe they have worked maybe not??

Honestly I don't trust the electric ghosts in the machine to just hammer the throttle or pound the brakes.... everything is still calculated to minimize needing them.

Now those power and suspension mods.. hell yeah.

Use those all the time. So damn cool. Looking forward to having a quick shifter again one day.

 

[anytwowilldo]

Who knows if disabling your ABS makes you safer or not. I believe it depends on the situation. When you are ready for a maximum braking exercise you may be able to out brake it. If you are totally surprised around a corner on a slippery surface you may not perform as well. Knowing that it is disabled and riding accordingly can only move the odds in your favor.

I'm sure that statistically Riders Aids aid the rider. If they didn't they would not exist. I'm sure they will make riders less skilled. Didn't Mark Marquez just crash at the Dutch GP because his traction control failed? If a rider of his skill is using them to there limit and crash when they fail, mere mortals like us will too.

I think the aids make motos more Approachable. They can tame almost everything about a bike and make them safer for most folks.

 

[Holeshot]

I'd like to turn ABS off when/ where I can. I do not want a rear brake that I can't lock which mostly is going to be used when I leave the pavement surface. It's bad we can't use the rear locking to manage the bike, but whatever...

Rider Aids will make a rider *think* they're riding better and in fact, the safety they provide gives a much more fun experience for riders. This is especially true on the 200hp super bikes where riders can ride as hard as they want and still have a large degree of safety built in.

However, there's a large downside to riding aids: poor riding habits and learning. With all of the 5 and 6 axis IMU bikes, power (and braking) is delivered relative to the bikes lean angle, bank angle, side load, vertical load, etc. If a 200hp V4S is on the side of the tire and the rider twists the throttle to the stops, the bike's only gonna give a small % of the total power...say 50hp. That is, until the condition are met where 100% is safe to release...which is pretty much straight up and down. The biggest mistake(s) I see from new riders on rider aids bikes is not worrying about pointing the bike and THEN picking up the throttle, but just winding the grip back and letting the electronics do their thing. Without able to take away lean angle, the bike's stuck at a low % of optimum HP and thus, the rider's exits suffer and they learn nothing, if not bad habits. It makes instructing a bit difficult. The rear tire slip/ spins and highsides were actually not a bad learning tool...

 

[tzrider]

One plus I’ve found for traction control in a coaching setting: I had two riders who had picked up their pace mid day and were starting to low line a hairpin, turning it into a decreasing radius turn and causing them to add lean angle later in the turn after they had begun rolling on the throttle.

This is the kind of error that it can take more than one session to sort out. I asked them to place their bikes into rain mode (S1000RR). In rain mode, the throttle will go soft when the lean angle exceeds 38 degrees. I told them what I was seeing, how this increased the risk of a crash and explained that if they did the same thing in rain mode, they would feel the throttle response change at the point in the corner where they were adding lean angle.

The lap after their warmup, they each upped the pace, made the same error and I could see a physical reaction when they felt the change in throttle response. They cleaned up the problem on the next lap, choosing a constant radius line and keeping the same lean angle through the turn at the same pace.

I’ve found that rider aids don’t necessarily dumb the rider down if used as a feedback tool and in connection with coaching on correct inputs and what to expect from errors.

 

[Wolf]

Can't really say; never had a bike with ABS or any other aids.

But until 5 years ago, I'd never owned a car with ABS either, and once I did, it was awesome!

Maybe it'll be the same with bikes.

 

[R3DS!X]

ABS on a car is very different

 

[GAJ]

Can't really say; never had a bike with ABS or any other aids.

But until 5 years ago, I'd never owned a car with ABS either, and once I did, it was awesome!

Maybe it'll be the same with bikes.

Never had an issue with ABS on autos and while my MX5 doesn't have it (or electric windows for that matter) the relatively full suite of nanny aids on my wife's 2019 CX5 work pretty seamlessly and unobtrusively so they seem to be very good things to have.

 

[R3DS!X]

Hey my wife has the same car! Such a nice ride for the money. did you get the android/apple car play upgrade? I've been tempted to tinker with the firmware to get rid of the annoying startup screen warning

 

[GAJ]

Hey my wife has the same car! Such a nice ride for the money. did you get the android/apple car play upgrade? I've been tempted to tinker with the firmware to get rid of the annoying startup screen warning

IDK, but android/apple car play worked fine.

She got the Turbo AWD and it is actually "fun" to drive for an SUV.

The manual shift mode actually works quite well in the backroads where you have elevation changes.

Great car.

We'd buy again if it were totaled tomorrow.

Don't even much notice the slow annoying startup screen anymore.

Not driver aids per se but I thought the "heated steering wheel" and "a/c seats" were dumb.

Until I tried them!

 

[R3DS!X]

IDK, but android/apple car play worked fine.

She got the Turbo AWD and it is actually "fun" to drive for an SUV.

The manual shift mode actually works quite well in the backroads where you have elevation changes.

Great car.

We'd buy again if it were totaled tomorrow.

Don't even much notice the slow annoying startup screen anymore.

Not driver aids per se but I thought the "heated steering wheel" and "a/c seats" were dumb.

Until I tried them!

ah I think hers is the year before the turbos were out (which I didn't know was gonna be an option.... damnit) Yeah it handles and drives way better than any of the other mind numbingly boring SUV's that I drove prior. the infortainment system wasn't compatible with the aa or carplay out fo the box and we had to upgrade later one to support it.

 

[GAJ]

ah I think hers is the year before the turbos were out (which I didn't know was gonna be an option.... damnit) Yeah it handles and drives way better than any of the other mind numbingly boring SUV's that I drove prior. the infortainment system wasn't compatible with the aa or carplay out fo the box and we had to upgrade later one to support it.

The blind spot monitoring on modern vehicles has to be a benefit for moto riders.

 

[Gary856]

I trust my riding enough and I'm comfortable without riding aids. ABS (and offroad ABS) would be nice.

If my wife or daughter want to learn to ride, I'd want their bikes to have full riding aids. They certainly add a layer of safety which is especially beneficial for less skilled riders.

 

[ST Guy]

ABS on a car is very different

Very different? How?

 

[Lagwagonlead]

Like on the FJ-09 it is hard to ride it in A mode around town a lower speed because it just wants to take off right away so you could put it in the slower mode to smoothen out the throttle response.

A and Standard modes seem pretty similar to me, even after a flash. I actually use B mode when riding around town or on rides with slower people. It keeps me in check.

On the more general topic of rider aids, I'm fine with them but after a year on the FJ-09 I would kill for on the fly on/off for it. 90% of the time I don't want TCS and 5% of the time I don't want ABS so if my next bike could turn those on and off without coming to a complete stop that would be preferred.

 

[ilikefood]

The blind spot monitoring on modern vehicles has to be a benefit for moto riders.

Perhaps in theory. In practice it could be very bad for moto riders if it get more drivers to change lanes without checking their mirrors. I'm also not convinced that it can reliably detect motorcycles. I've passed by cars without triggering the blind spot monitoring light.