Secret motorcycle industry panel looks for ways to reverse sagging sales

[moto-rama]

Where's the like button?

Right next to the "I figli dell'anarchia" button, or the "Jax" aka Giacomo button.

 

[norcalkid]

I have been looking at getting the kids first bikes, and have been met with either complete apathy by the sales team or even completely ignored. I went to the local honda dealer who has a $400 dealer markup on top of fees/taxes (on a $1499 bike) on crf50s "cuz they're hot at Xmas". The local Suzuki dealer doesn't even stock drz70's. Went to the Yammie place and they actually seemed interested in a sale, but unfortunately I don't like the ttr50 not having a kick starter as backup.

I am actually interested in riding on the street again, but none of the Japanese bikes have test rides. Having to wait a year for the one weekend when they do roll in the factory semi doesn't cut it. If I have to put down 10-15k for a vehicle I have no idea if I will enjoy riding, I'm not going to buy...With prices just rising year over year, how can I, as somebody who is already an enthusiast and M1 holder for 20 years, be expected to pull the trigger when I can't even have a test ride...

Not sure about Jap bikes but I was actually encouraged to ride a new BMW by the owner of the shop. Bike was supposed to go on demo but hadn't yet(R310). I was even honest with not buying form him(Thinking of a 310GS for Thailand, already transferred my money into Thai bank account and everything). Was also offered a Africa Twin demo in Oct, didn't take them up as I wasn't looking to buy. So I know it is possible with Jap bikes.

I do think the $5000 BMW 310's + encouraging test rides is a winning combination.

But ya I totally get it. Would I drop 20k on a goldwing having never rode one, nope. Just like I wouldn't on a car.

But on the other hand, I do get it that new rider + new bike = bad news, and they can't really stalk safety gear for everyone size(I had full gear but BMW offered anything I was missing).

 

[jwb]

Not sure about Jap bikes but I was actually encouraged to ride a new BMW by the owner of the shop. Bike was supposed to go on demo but hadn't yet(R310). I was even honest with not buying form him(Thinking of a 310GS for Thailand, already transferred my money into Thai bank account and everything). Was also offered a Africa Twin demo in Oct, didn't take them up as I wasn't looking to buy. So I know it is possible with Jap bikes.

I do think the $5000 BMW 310's + encouraging test rides is a winning combination.

But ya I totally get it. Would I drop 20k on a goldwing having never rode one, nope. Just like I wouldn't on a car.

But on the other hand, I do get it that new rider + new bike = bad news, and they can't really stalk safety gear for everyone size(I had full gear but BMW offered anything I was missing).

BMW has a factory demo program. Every BMW dealer will let you take out whatever bike, if you look minimally respectable.

KTM apparently same, I've taken various bikes out from Scuderia West.

For Japanese makes, it's up to the dealer to run their own demo program if they want, and most of them don't. First time I went to buy a new bike I walked into Marin Cycleworks (no longer in business) and test-rode a CBR600F4. I didn't realize that was not customary, so the next time I asked for a test ride on a Japanese bike the guy just laughed. Hey and guess what, after that I didn't buy another new Japanese bike for 20 years.

 

[NoobCorpse]

Have you actually tried, or is it just supposition? I know the Japanese dealers are notorious for it, but also, I know that they've offered rides to me at the same time.

I really have no idea how it works, but I've heard of no demos on Japanese bikes because of liability reasons, and I've also heard because the manufacturer does not provide demo bikes to dealerships. However, I was able to test ride a DCT Africa Twin last year at a large powersports dealer in San Diego, but that seemed to be a demo bike that was also out on the floor for sale.

BMW has a factory demo program. Every BMW dealer will let you take out whatever bike, if you look minimally respectable.

KTM apparently same, I've taken various bikes out from Scuderia West.

For Japanese makes, it's up to the dealer to run their own demo program if they want, and most of them don't. First time I went to buy a new bike I walked into Marin Cycleworks (no longer in business) and test-rode a CBR600F4. I didn't realize that was not customary, so the next time I asked for a test ride on a Japanese bike the guy just laughed. Hey and guess what, after that I didn't buy another new Japanese bike for 20 years.

I absolutely believe that no demos hurts sales, but I get that they don't want to have 600 or 1000 supersports ready for some inexperienced rider to come take them out for a spin. Some of the other bikes, though, I think it would help. Maybe the margins are smaller on those bikes and dealers don't have / don't want to pony up cash to purchase a demo bike.

 

[Karbon]

Podcast has a segment with panelist Robert Pandya talking about industry sales.

This week on our motorcycle podcast we have a lively crew, and......Zach is back! We get an update on Henry, who crashed during our last recording. Then we get into our main subject with our guest, Robert Pandya. Robert works in the motorcycle industry, and like so many, was concerned about the recession in the industry. He decided to do something about, and started the Give A Shift roundtable discussions with other industry insiders. They've been coming together to try to pinpoint the problems, and offer solutions. Although he breaks it down for us, there is no easy solution. But he gives us some suggestions on where we can start.

interview & discussion starts at 23ish min. in.
https://soundcloud.com/re-cyclegara...dcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=facebook

Report available here.
https://miles-by-motorcycle.com/give-a-shift

Shout out to Surj!

And thanks for listening!

 

[budman]

Good chat.

 

[DataDan]

I'm giving this thread CPR for a moment because another thread, Shop refusing to work on a 2003 moto?!?!?!, reminds me of how much some dealers suck.

A dealer that refuses to work on a 15-year-old motorcycle should not expect its owner EVER to buy ANYTHING from them--least of all a new motorcycle. And a HARLEY dealer that refuses to work on anything older than 2005...

Yeah, the internet has made life tough in retail, but it's even tougher when you can't exploit the one big advantage you have, an opportunity to win loyal customers with great service.

 

[aminalmutha]

I'm giving this thread CPR for a moment because another thread, Shop refusing to work on a 2003 moto?!?!?!, reminds me of how much some dealers suck.

A dealer that refuses to work on a 15-year-old motorcycle should not expect its owner EVER to buy ANYTHING from them--least of all a new motorcycle. And a HARLEY dealer that refuses to work on anything older than 2005...

Yeah, the internet has made life tough in retail, but it's even tougher when you can't exploit the one big advantage you have, an opportunity to win loyal customers with great service.

I've had this discussion with at least two trusted moto dealership service writers way back in the day; at least 10 years ago, so this is not new...

They have these policies for a reason and I kinda get it.

How it goes... dude comes in with some bust-ass jalopy he bought for cheap. Needs tires, brakes, fuel system flush, carb rebuild, valve adjust, oil change, air filter, chain, sprockets, plugs, fork seals, shocks, turn signal, foot peg, clutch lever, steering stem bearings, swingarm bushings, etc.

Even if you only do half that in order to get it road worthy, parts and labor end up being damn close to the value of the bike and in some cases, more.

So, shop gives dude a quote, dude says do it, shop spends a bunch of time and money on it and dude says forget about it once it comes time to pay the bill cuz he's annoyed at how much it cost, that it could have cost less to get a better bike in the first place and btw, he's just really not all interested in motorcycles to begin with.

Shop ends up with the bike, has to spend time and money to gain ownership of it thru a lien and has to try to recoup as much as they can thru a sale. A sale they don't really want to make cuz they could make a lot more selling a new bike.

This isn't theory, this has happened to at least two shops that I know of. So they said fuck it, take it to your local independent place.

 

[berth]

This isn't theory, this has happened to at least two shops that I know of. So they said fuck it, take it to your local independent place.

That's messed up, but there's no reason the shop can't ask for the customer to pay the estimate, or at least a good chunk of it as a deposit for the work. I mean, the dealer isn't obligated to take the job at all, so I don't see a reason why they can't impose that kind of policy on it.

 

[jumph4x]

These manufs all need to get back to basics, selling fun, cheap transportation to normal people. This is the ad that made Honda America a success. Normal people on a motorcycle having a nice time.

This is current Kawi advertising:

Not-normal people, not really having fun, with an astronomical price of entry. What the industry needs is kids on 50cc machines, not weirdos perched on a racing machine out of its element.

You are on the money.

 

[aminalmutha]

That's messed up, but there's no reason the shop can't ask for the customer to pay the estimate, or at least a good chunk of it as a deposit for the work. I mean, the dealer isn't obligated to take the job at all, so I don't see a reason why they can't impose that kind of policy on it.

Live and learn, I guess. Maybe they did get deposits, I can't recall exactly, but they got stuck with a bike worth less than what they put into it. Not a good way to run a business, so they put an end to it.

 

[norcalkid]

Just kind of rereading this thread thinking, fuck. My bike tires cost 5 times as much as my car tires from the local shop. About $460 for the bike(with labor) and $550 for the car(with labor). But the car tires go like 5-7 times as long.

When you consider difficulty of test ride. Locating and getting training, pricey gear and maintenance, then you go into the dealership to look at that sale 4999 bike that ends up like $7500 after all the BS fees it's a wonder their are any new riders at all.

It's even difficult to take someone for a ride on the back of a bike just to get their feet wet. I don't have a second full set of gear and even if I did it's not like size is universal.

I think leases would be good. And access to test rides is big for me. Shops taking trade in on new bike, etc

I also think the manufactures need to do more of a starter package working with schools, gear manufactures and the bike. (have a CB300/safety school/full gear package). Have a sexy, safe/responsible advertising campaign.





PS, I feel young and I think Goldwings are bad ass and I'd love to try one.

 

[WWWobble]

I'm giving this thread CPR for a moment because another thread, Shop refusing to work on a 2003 moto?!?!?!, reminds me of how much some dealers suck.

A dealer that refuses to work on a 15-year-old motorcycle should not expect its owner EVER to buy ANYTHING from them--least of all a new motorcycle. And a HARLEY dealer that refuses to work on anything older than 2005...

Yeah, the internet has made life tough in retail, but it's even tougher when you can't exploit the one big advantage you have, an opportunity to win loyal customers with great service.

I have a number of friends in the industry, and the problem here is the cost "to win loyal customers with great service." Short story... customers won't pay for it. And the dealer can't.

My opinion is as bikes become more computer controlled, well... where would you go to fix a 15 year old computer?

On the more positive side, several offer 5 year unlimited warranties on mechanical and electrical -- for reasonable cost. That NEVER happened in 1970.

some good, some bad. Times change....

 

[berth]

I have a number of friends in the industry, and the problem here is the cost "to win loyal customers with great service." Short story... customers won't pay for it. And the dealer can't.

I'm a sucker because I will pay for it. Service (not technicians, "Service") is very hard to find.

My opinion is as bikes become more computer controlled, well... where would you go to fix a 15 year old computer?

You just swap it out, if you can find one.

On the more positive side, several offer 5 year unlimited warranties on mechanical and electrical -- for reasonable cost. That NEVER happened in 1970.

I have a lifetime service policy on my Jeep. I was amazed they offered something like that.

At the same time, I've put "more money than it's worth" in to vehicles in the past. It may be more than it's worth, but it's still an incremental cost compared to getting another one, not just in money but time and everything else.

15 years out of my old Explo(r/d)er. It was my second, 200+K miles out of my first (7 years). Mind, one reason I bought the Explorer back in the day was that I knew that I could go to any parts store in any one lane dirt road main street town in the country and find parts for it at the local gas station or convenience store.

Love my Jeep, but I really liked those Explorers. Ford left me with the new ones, not the other way around.

As a kid, I'll never forget how absolutely amazed I was that Sears had a starter for my Dads car when we went in once. Of all the billions of car parts on the planet, SEARS(!!) had the starter for my Dads car. Of course it was a GM 350 V8, so, yea, in hindsight, less amazing -- but at the time. Wow!

 

[ontherearwheel]

Take a corvair to a Chevy dealer. Should I not buy anything GMC cause they won't work on it.

Dealer has the right to work on anything they want too.

 

[Schnellbandit]

A lot of used bike buyers are just like used Mercedes buyers, they don't think past the purchase to the maintenance costs. They see a nice whatever bike that in its day was all that plus some, even has then state of the art electronics, abs, you name it. They buy it for change and then can't figure out why the dealer wants so much for a valve check and adjustment, pulling the old fuel and vacuum lines and putting in new brake and clutch hoses. That old bike costs easily as much as a brand new bike to maintain, more when the owner goes cheap, doesn't replace things like brake hoses and then screams because their brakes failed.

Buyers gets all upset about a $900 service and parts fee but plunks down over a grand on some areostitch and $400 on a set of gloves and never blinks.

 

[Moto Beck]

You are on the money.

Seriously +1.

New Vitipilen 701 releases - ultra light single cyclinder bike and they price it at $12,000.

Love to see a price distribution of bikes and where they fall on the curve. Seems like it would be overwhelming skewed towards over $10k

 

[aminalmutha]

Seriously +1.

New Vitipilen 701 releases - ultra light single cyclinder bike and they price it at $12,000.

Love to see a price distribution of bikes and where they fall on the curve. Seems like it would be overwhelming skewed towards over $10k

They price the 701 like that because it is an absolute monster and technical marvel compared to a Honda Dream. Just because it's light and a single doesn't mean it should be cheap.

Honda and other mfgs sell small bikes in the millions over seas because that's what people can afford.

 

[Moto Beck]

They price the 701 like that because it is an absolute monster and technical marvel compared to a Honda Dream. Just because it's light and a single doesn't mean it should be cheap.

Honda and other mfgs sell small bikes in the millions over seas because that's what people can afford.

no doubt - not saying that the price point isn't justified - but is the price point of yet another +$10K bike what the market needs?

Any time a company is considering a growth strategy - offering premium products is not what grows their share in the marketplace (not saying Husky is looking to do this).

Extreme example but the introduction of the iPhone X to apple smartphone line didnt grow their share, shipments were slightly down compared to a year ago - however it did improve their gross margin % by a significant amount.

IMO (with the exception of a few brands like Yamaha fz07/fz09) - it seems a lot of manufacturers are recognizing lower demand and adopting a premium strategy to maximize profits at the expense of slower growth (i.e. more expensive bikes = higher profit margin but lower sales), instead of focusing on lower cost bikes that will drive market growth at the cost of reduced profit margins.

I dont know in the slightest what the math is - but perhaps offering a cheaper bike to try to spur growth is too much of a risk. Do they need to sell 2x, 5x, 10x more than a premium bike to achieve similar margins? What is the cannibalization risk to their existing line with a lower cost entrant. etc.

 

[Norcal-Cycles]

Here's just ONE problem I see all the time (ONLY in America)... If it's a smaller bike or equipped with a smaller cc engine "That's a girls' bike" / "It's not a real bike"... Millions and millions of scooters/bikes are sold overseas... you will see boys, girls, older folks riding that exact same bike. They don't look at you differently. There is no gender or age differences. Some way, some how, we and/or manufacturers need to break this kind of barrier.

Literally just yesterday, we had a customer walk-in looking for a bike... he saw we had a sportster for sale... his question was, "Is it for girls?" We told him don't worry about what other people think as long as you like it and feel comfortable with the bike, that's what really counts!!!