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SK Jeju airlines crash

dravnx said:
If you want a deep dive into a discussion about this accident, check out https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=235039. Active and retired ATPs, active and retired military aviators discussing. The general consensus is that nobody knows what happened. The CVR and FDR (black boxes) should put the pieces of the puzzle together. It will interesting to see how the holes in the swiss cheese all lined up.
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Pretty much this. It doesn’t make sense. I can’t think of very many scenarios why an immediate landing would be this necessary other than being on fire. Ingesting birds in an engine can give the impression that you’re on fire, and that’s about all I got.

I want to see the CVR transcript and FDR data. I’ve hit birds before, multiple times. It’s usually a non-event. Hell, even shutting one down is a non-event. It’s also extremely rare to not be able to get the gear down, even with a complete hydraulic system failure. I can only imagine complete panic on the flight deck causing a myriad of other problems, all human factor related. I’ve been hearing that they were over the threshold at 200+ knots. That’s freaking hauling ass, and should have been another go around, but I wasn’t there, and no data has been released so who knows.


I can say this much with certainty, because I’ve done it. Once you’re on approach, if you run over a bird and you’re configured/configuring to land, you land. Single engine go arounds are like trying to pull off the freeway on a moto with a flat tire. It ain’t impossible, but fuck you hate to do it. We used to have a training scenario where we’d lose an engine intercepting final about 20 miles out. The guidance, just land the damn thing. Declare the emergency, point it at the runway and get it on the ground. It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than flying wishing you were on the ground.

Anyway, I have a lot of questions.
 
yodaisgod said:
Seems to me the crew were improperly trained.
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Could be that they were properly trained but a culture issue. It’s happened before. Some shops view the Captain as a god, and every one must obey. We’ve gotten away from that here in the US, but the Captain is still the final authority. Someone has to be in charge, but they shouldn’t be treated like a god.
 
Is there any way to load that aircraft with weight?
Apply control surfaces to drive the plane into the ground for more drag?
Watching that vid, it never slows, and it was bugging me, the whole time.
 
All it needed was a tail hook.
 
Aluminum on concrete has a very low drag coefficient and they were blazing in. There are many questions on this one.
 
I looked at Google Earth to get an idea of what lay beyond the barrier. Had it not been there, they would have crossed an access road, then continued over some kind of drainage structure that may or may not be sticking up. The ground just beyond it drops away a little bit, then continues flat for quite a ways before giving way to water. Had the barrier not been there it looks like the plane would have been in for a rough ride, though probably more survivable than a concrete wall.
 
gixxerjeff said:
All it needed was a tail hook.
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or catch fences like aircraft carriers... but at all airports the cost would be astronomical.

tzrider said:
I looked at Google Earth to get an idea of what lay beyond the barrier. Had it not been there, they would have crossed an access road, then continued over some kind of drainage structure that may or may not be sticking up. The ground just beyond it drops away a little bit, then continues flat for quite a ways before giving way to water. Had the barrier not been there it looks like the plane would have been in for a rough ride, though probably more survivable than a concrete wall.
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Nah concrete wall is whats on the outside perimeter of that airport, that shit would have folded over when hit.... They hit an equivalent of a concrete BUNKER
 
Dmitriy said:
or catch fences like aircraft carriers... but at all airports the cost would be astronomical.
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It’s called EMAS, many airports in the US and Europe already have it.
 
Dmitriy said:
Looks like that only works well for a wheels down overrun situation.... (and only then up to 60mph, Korean flight was doing 150)

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It will stop an aircraft running of into it even if it’s skidding along on its engine nacelles. EMAS is designed to start crushing under an aircraft of 16k pounds. That 73 empty weighs in at just under 91k. This aircraft, and the speed at which it ran off the end of the runway, nothing was stopping it and keeping it in one piece.

All of the other things you mentioned in this thread are untenable. Commercial aircraft are not built like a fighter jet. It would rip them apart much like hitting a wall at similar speeds.
 
msethhunter said:
Could be that they were properly trained but a culture issue. It’s happened before. Some shops view the Captain as a god, and every one must obey. We’ve gotten away from that here in the US, but the Captain is still the final authority. Someone has to be in charge, but they shouldn’t be treated like a god.
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I think the other issue is that many Asian cultures use a lot of memorization as primary approach for demonstrating educational mastery. Which I suppose could be useful in a checklist intensive occupation like piloting, but can become pretty problematic when highly unusual situations occur. Their job suddenly switches from "follow these 4000 steps to get this plane from Thailand to Korea" and suddenly becomes about fundamental airmanship skills.

I think also many of the pilots in the Asia budget airlines have minimal training/experience compared to what you would find here. I remember flying into Castle 10 years ago and the place was buzzing with Asian trainees, barely understandable on the radio, with the tower practically yelling at them as they wobbled all around the pattern. It was nerve wracking and unpleasant. My CFI looked at me and said after a couple of hundred more hours of training, half these guys will be flying 737s in Asia :eek:
 
mercurial said:
I think the other issue is that many Asian cultures use a lot of memorization as primary approach for demonstrating educational mastery. Which I suppose could be useful in a checklist intensive occupation like piloting, but can become pretty problematic when highly unusual situations occur. Their job suddenly switches from "follow these 4000 steps to get this plane from Thailand to Korea" and suddenly becomes about fundamental airmanship skills.

I think also many of the pilots in the Asia budget airlines have minimal training/experience compared to what you would find here. I remember flying into Castle 10 years ago and the place was buzzing with Asian trainees, barely understandable on the radio, with the tower practically yelling at them as they wobbled all around the pattern. It was nerve wracking and unpleasant. My CFI looked at me and said after a couple of hundred more hours of training, half these guys will be flying 737s in Asia :eek:
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Add to it, the way that many Asian airlines work is they send them over here to get their certificates, which the barely pass, then send them home and convert them to their home countries certificate and sit them in the right seat of an airliner with less than 350hrs total time. All of that is based on a contract they’ve signed that says they will work for that airline…..forever! So they pair a weak captain who barely made through with an even weaker FO and set them off into the blue yonder. Listening to some of these “experienced” crews at major airports on the radio, I just shake my head and keep a close eye on them.
 
CDONA said:
I believe Napa airport did commercial training for Asian airline pilots, '80's ?
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They come and go. They’ll start a small school with a few investors, get a contract from a foreign airline or two, train up some students then go BK….rinse, repeat. There aren’t very many flight schools that have staying power. There’s about five or six who’ve been around a long time that are considered “pilot mills” then mom&pop joints that don’t cater to foreign airlines who actually survive.

The only way to make a million dollars in aviation is to start with ten million. Keeping up with changing regulations and maintenance is very costly. Just to park a little Cessna outside and never use it costs a few thousand dollars a year. A buddy recently bought a Challenger 300. I told him “if you can’t write a check for it, you can’t afford it.” Before he pulls it out of the hangar each month he’s into it for almost $35k. He was tired of chartering, and wanted his own. I told him he’s better off letting someone else deal with the headache. He’s now considering leasing it to a charter outfit so they can handle all the inspections, insurance, training, etc. Aviation is a mean bitch and she’ll eat your lunch, your mom’s lunch and your kids lunch too. When it’s good, it’s really good. When it’s bad, it’s way worse than really bad.
 
I know that boats are a hole in the water that you dump your money into, I imagine that planes really aren't for people who can just make the payments on their plane and pay for the spot at an airport.
 
CDONA said:
I believe Napa airport did commercial training for Asian airline pilots, '80's ?
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Yep, early 80s to mid 90s. JAL They started with Piper Arrows and then changed over to Beechcraft A36 for their primary trainers. The students then transitioned to C90s for their multi ratings. Used to have to fight them for space in the pattern. I have a customer who has one of their old A36s. You can tell they are old JAL trainers because all the instruments are front mounted for easy replacement.
 
dravnx said:
Yep, early 80s to mid 90s. JAL They started with Piper Arrows and then changed over to Beechcraft A36 for their primary trainers. The students then transitioned to C90s for their multi ratings. Used to have to fight them for space in the pattern. I have a customer who has one of their old A36s. You can tell they are old JAL trainers because all the instruments are front mounted for easy replacement.
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It continued into the late 2k’s out at BFL. It was called IFTA I think. I had C90 time and they wanted me to come out there and “instruct” in it.

Nope. They’re gone now and someone else is doing JAL training.
 
Given Japanese culture and attitudes toward technical excellence and pride in operational execution, I'd feel pretty good about flying on their legacy carriers, these days.
 
msethhunter said:
It continued into the late 2k’s out at BFL. It was called IFTA I think. I had C90 time and they wanted me to come out there and “instruct” in it.

Nope. They’re gone now and someone else is doing JAL training.
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Ding ding, Last night I got a Memory alert CAS message on my bedside PFD. I scrolled to System/Aux/DB Status and found that it was IASCO who did the training
 
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