Slow speed practice, no experts please

[beginner]

Sounds like you had a good time. Enchanter is correct, if you're leaving skid marks...well, they're called skid marks for a reason. Start with less rear brake and as you slow, release pressure on the rear while progressively squeezing the front.

BE CAREFUL. On a bike such as yours you'll really compress the front so don't be surprised by it. If the front skids, release the front brake and reapply.

By standard, if it's taking you at LEAST 36 feet to stop then you're nowhere close to the standards...going 20 you should be able to stop in under 25 feet. I'm sure we posted the ALT MOST standards somewhere in one of these threads so I'd go back and look there--it's an MSF set standard so it's doable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQpJDux_M-w Watch the front end compress (we often call it LOADING the front) while I make that firm progressive squeeze. Good luck. Be careful, without a coach to walk you through it it's very easy to have a moment of "discovery learning" and end up on you head.

The goal today was not to see how fast I could stop the bike but to feel loss of traction from braking at the lowest speed I could arrange. To do that I did sort of reverse braking by applying the brakes as gradually as possible and still have some energy for a slow speed skid near the end. That worked. The tires got loud and I could feel the bike get squirrely close to the stop but I had no sense of a locked wheel and none of the sandpaper sound that might be associated with that. I used both brakes on every stop. I had no sense of the rear getting ready to lift off the ground. I'll watch for that. May be going up a hill helps because it keeps more weight on the rear end. May be the Kenda tires don't have the greatest traction, which I've complained about before.

Before garaging the bike I did some hard stops from 30 mph on the road in front of the house both up and down grade with black marks and tires screeching. It never felt umcomfortable. Tomorrow is another day. There will be brake runs at the start of every PLP session from now on. I'll try to wear out a set of brake pads in the next 6 months and see what that teaches.

I watched your video and how the rear lifted up. I had no sense of that happening with the KLX.

 

[CaptCrash]

The tires got loud and I could feel the bike get squirrely close to the stop but I had no sense of a locked wheel and none of the sandpaper sound that might be associated with that. I used both brakes on every stop. I had no sense of the rear getting ready to lift off the ground. I'll watch for that. May be going up a hill helps because it keeps more weight on the rear end. May be the Kenda tires don't have the greatest traction, which I've complained about before.

I'll be frank here--you're scaring me. First, the SOUND and 'squirrely" feeling are classic symptoms of a locked rear wheel. Connect that with a skid mark and VIOLA! You locked the rear and drug it for 36 feet. The fact you don't KNOW that happened is what scares me. The classic symptoms of a locked rear wheel skid are: SOUND and a mushy feeling out back as the rear slides. You ARE skidding the rear rather profoundly. That said, you're probably not using enough front brake. When you talk to folks about braking they'll tell you things like "you've got to bury the nose" or "the rear really got light and the nose dove". When instructors watch one of the pure signs of good braking they look for is compression in the front forks. In Idaho and Oregon we coach "to max braking" and if you're not compressing the front forks then you're under-utilizing your front brake.

Before garaging the bike I did some hard stops from 30 mph on the road in front of the house both up and down grade with black marks and tires screeching. It never felt umcomfortable. Tomorrow is another day. There will be brake runs at the start of every PLP session from now on. I'll try to wear out a set of brake pads in the next 6 months and see what that teaches.

I watched your video and how the rear lifted up. I had no sense of that happening with the KLX.

All I can say is watch the video again, realize that the stops in the open are from 30 to 0. Hard braking can be unsettling because the bike stops far quicker than we think we can. At this point, you clearly need some professional instruction. It's worth the time and trouble. The only other option you have is to get a speedometer, set out a cone, and measure.

Good luck!

***I realize this is probably more expert advice than you want in this thread, but you're truly giving an excellent description of a rear wheel skid and I think it's important for your safety and the safety of others that it not be misrepresented.

 

[masameet]

Janna and I have much in common regarding spelling, punctuation, and the like. So remember, folks, the words are:

"non sequitur" and "Voilà!"



And beginner, in doing braking exercises during cone practice we emphasize not locking the brakes, no laying down of skid marks, covering the front brake, and braking gently and decisively. We also have riders see how their bikes react by braking at various speeds (15, 20, 25; they have to practice braking at fast speeders on their own), using both brakes, just the front brake, and just the rear brake. We also have riders brake and swerve or swerve. We ask that they check their mirrors and look over their shoulders before swerving. Sometimes we tell them where to swerve. The fun part is when we don't tell them where to go and then they brake to a stop right in front of us. We have yet to tell them, Oh, you're now dead. But I think they get the point when they fail to react after knowing they must react positively (brake and swerve or swerve) to save their lives and their bikes.

OK. Bad humor there. But I hope you get the point.

We can tell you how we practice. But telling lacks the reference of actually doing it with others, where you get feedback.

Also since you have a dirt bike, practice sliding in the dirt. That kind of loss of traction will teach you how to react positively when you lose traction and can help in riding on asphalt.

 

[beginner]

I'll be frank here--you're scaring me. First, the SOUND and 'squirrely" feeling are classic symptoms of a locked rear wheel. Connect that with a skid mark and VIOLA! You locked the rear and drug it for 36 feet. The fact you don't KNOW that happened is what scares me. The classic symptoms of a locked rear wheel skid are: SOUND and a mushy feeling out back as the rear slides. You ARE skidding the rear rather profoundly. That said, you're probably not using enough front brake. When you talk to folks about braking they'll tell you things like "you've got to bury the nose" or "the rear really got light and the nose dove". When instructors watch one of the pure signs of good braking they look for is compression in the front forks. In Idaho and Oregon we coach "to max braking" and if you're not compressing the front forks then you're under-utilizing your front brake.

First, I did brake practice all last summer but not very agressive compared to today. The purpose of today's practice was to approach the traction limit and even skid the front a bit if that felt comfortable, which it did. Sooner or later it's something that has to be learned and it started for me today.

I think I got some good skids but not on a locked wheel. I went easy on the rear wheel. I wanted the skid in front and that's what I think I got. There was not a moment of stability trouble, everything was easy and predictable. Tomorrow I'll take pictures of the skid marks. In a few weeks my parking lot is going to look like a landing strip.

My video camera is not available for a couple weeks but I know someone who might video a couple of my stops. I think you'll see the skid marks are not produced by a locked wheel.

All I can say is watch the video again, realize that the stops in the open are from 30 to 0. Hard braking can be unsettling because the bike stops far quicker than we think we can. At this point, you clearly need some professional instruction. It's worth the time and trouble. The only other option you have is to get a speedometer, set out a cone, and measure.

My GPS is a reliable speedometer so that's covered. At this point I'm more interested in traction control than stopping distance. To get the shortest stopping distance I'd have to apply the brakes harder earlier and that's exactly what I'm avoiding at this point. I want slow speed skids, not high speed skids.

***I realize this is probably more expert advice than you want in this thread, but you're truly giving an excellent description of a rear wheel skid and I think it's important for your safety and the safety of others that it not be misrepresented.

We will settle the question of whether any wheels are locking shortly with a video.

And beginner, in doing braking exercises during cone practice we emphasize not locking the brakes, no laying down of skid marks, covering the front brake, and braking gently and decisively.

And I did just that all last summer. Today was about pushing to the limit (at a slow speed) to learn about that.

Also since you have a dirt bike, practice sliding in the dirt. That kind of loss of traction will teach you how to react positively when you lose traction and can help in riding on asphalt.

I can slip the rear of the bike in tight turns on grass and pavement though I'm not very good at it yet. I think all the turning practice helps balance the bike in hard stops.

 

[CaptCrash]

Newbs: I would suggest you NEVER go out on pavement and intentionally skid the front and would suggest you DO NOT practice it. IF in the course of practicing max braking you DO skid the front then release the front brake and reapply.

 

[beginner]

Newbs: I would suggest you NEVER go out on pavement and intentionally skid the front and would suggest you DO NOT practice it. IF in the course of practicing max braking you DO skid the front then release the front brake and reapply.

As you know half of my first 300 hours on the bike has been drills and exercises for balance and traction. May be that was good preparation. May be it helps to be learning on a 240 pound bike.

The dicey question about stopping is not what the tires and brakes can do or what can the rider do with them when things go as planned. What concerns me is knowing how to recover or get back out of trouble if I exceed the limits despite best efforts to avoid it. Sooner or later it's time to learn that lesson and until then may be it's foolhardy to ride in traffic or faster than 30 mph.

 

[CaptCrash]

How new is new. As you know half of my first 300 hours on the bike drills and exercises for balance and traction. May be that was good preparation. May be it helps to be learning on a 240 pound bike.

I waited 25 years before I first intentionally said: I'm going to skid the front. I do it only for demonstration purposes. It requires BAD BRAKING TECHNIQUE to do it. You have to grab the front and lock it before wieght transfers to the front. Any steering imput to a skidding front tire on pavement will probably end badly. It's bad technique and a bad idea. That said:

Newbs: I would suggest you NEVER go out on pavement and intentionally skid the front and would suggest you DO NOT practice it. IF in the course of practicing max braking you DO skid the front then release the front brake and reapply.

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

I think you'll see the skid marks are not produced by a locked wheel.

Skid marks are caused when the rubber of your tire is grinding across the pavement instead of rolling. The wheel may not be 100% locked to the point that it has 0 rotation (relative to the bike) whatsoever, so the term "locked" may seem misleading, but the fact remains-- you've lost traction, and the tire is skidding. This is what is generally referred to as "locked". The absolute rotational speed of the wheel itself relative to the bike is irrelevant, it's the difference in motion between the tire surface relative to the pavement that matters. What did you mean by the tires getting "loud"? If it was a squeaky or screeching noise, that's skidding at a level beyond sandpapery, and any noise at all means you've lost some amount of traction.

My GPS is a reliable speedometer

....Wait, what? Um. Unless you've got some kind of military missile tracking system on your bike I can't see how you can be serious. GPS is fine for stuff like the highway or whatever, making an average of pretty large motions, but for maneuvers that are accelerating and decelerating in a matter of seconds across a small parking lot.... uh, no. Maybe the next-gen European GPS with accuracy down to cms and a high refresh rate will be able to do it even better than a spedometer, but US civvie stuff is not gonna be of much use in these maneuvers.

BAD BRAKING TECHNIQUE

I bet I know what's coming here; "experts" telling us NOT TO PRACTICE again, right? That's not what they're saying. Basically, GOOD braking technique is the fine art of pushing your traction as far as it will go without hitting the point where it breaks loose and a wheel skids-- because skidding reduces your ability to brake and reduces your control of the bike. Figuring out where that breaking point is, what it feels like, and messing around with how the bike behaves once it's already skidding is all very well and good, but it's advanced and potentially dangerous.

there's a part of the topic that says "No experts", too. Right there, you know, in the title of the thread. A number of us see that as a serious issue with this thread. But, if you're going to ask for help in how to learn motorcycle riding skills all the while insisting that the blinders be kept in place...I guess that's your call. Just don't be frustrated at the results.

This is a damn good point. It's very hard to have a constructive discussion on ANY topic without some basic communication skills. Contribute to discussions rationally, offering a bit of respect and listening every now and then. If that doesn't interest you-- wrong planet.

 

[beginner]

I waited 25 years before I first intentionally said: I'm going to skid the front. I do it only for demonstration purposes. It requires BAD BRAKING TECHNIQUE to do it. You have to grab the front and lock it before wieght transfers to the front. Any steering imput to a skidding front tire on pavement will probably end badly. It's bad technique and a bad idea. That said:

I mentioned that hard braking was leaving skid marks and you assume some dire circumstances that I did not detect. Hopefully today there will be a video to look at. I think the soft compound of the Kenda 270s explains the skid marks, not locked wheels.

Newbs: I would suggest you NEVER go out on pavement and intentionally skid the front and would suggest you DO NOT practice it. IF in the course of practicing max braking you DO skid the front then release the front brake and reapply.

This habit of warning "new" riders everytime you need the upper hand in a discussion is getting to be a familiar cliche. I wish you would take the opportunity to advise people that there is a huge benefit to training their motor/balance system, with significant hours of drills and exercises, to feel lean and traction better.

Apparently I needed 300 hours experience including 150 hours of exercises before I had enough feel for the bike to push hard on the brakes. May be I'm typical and a lot of "new" riders are putting themselves in situations where they shouldn't be.

Skid marks are caused when the rubber of your tire is grinding across the pavement instead of rolling. The wheel may not be 100% locked to the point that it has 0 rotation (relative to the bike) whatsoever, so the term "locked" may seem misleading, but the fact remains-- you've lost traction, and the tire is skidding. This is what is generally referred to as "locked". The absolute rotational speed of the wheel itself relative to the bike is irrelevant, it's the difference in motion between the tire surface relative to the pavement that matters.

I agree with you except for the absolutes. The significance of tire noise and black marks may also depend on tread patterns and rubber compound. Any throttle, brakes or turning uses up some traction.

....Wait, what? Um. Unless you've got some kind of military missile tracking system on your bike I can't see how you can be serious. GPS is fine for stuff like the highway or whatever, making an average of pretty large motions, but for maneuvers that are accelerating and decelerating in a matter of seconds across a small parking lot.... uh, no.

When it's time to measure stopping distances I'll do that in the road where the GPS has proven to be a very accurate speedometer. You are right it needs a few seconds to get accurate so it's not useful in small spaces like parking lots.

I bet I know what's coming here; "experts" telling us NOT TO PRACTICE again, right? That's not what they're saying. Basically, GOOD braking technique is the fine art of pushing your traction as far as it will go without hitting the point where it breaks loose and a wheel skids-- because skidding reduces your ability to brake and reduces your control of the bike. Figuring out where that breaking point is, what it feels like, and messing around with how the bike behaves once it's already skidding is all very well and good, but it's advanced and potentially dangerous.

Every second on a moving bike is potentially dangerous. One of the lessons of the bike is how much patience it takes to improve motor/balance skills.

It's very hard to have a constructive discussion on ANY topic without some basic communication skills. Contribute to discussions rationally, offering a bit of respect and listening every now and then. If that doesn't interest you-- wrong planet.

Stop trying to micro manage the discussion and things might be more interesting and informative.

Last season I'd notice a small breakthrough in skills about every two weeks and shortly after I'd drop the bike--confidence on the bike is like a drug. This season I'm noticing that false confidence influence is stronger than ever so I'm pushing things in the parking lot at slow speed but riding even more conservatively, than the end of last season, everywhere else.

 

[CaptCrash]

The reason you asked for "No Experts" is because you want to be the expert. Experts know this:

No compression of the front front + a loud screech or sliding sound + instability of the rear + a long black mark on the pavement = rear wheel skid.

Scampering around claiming otherwise is foolish. You're hoping for what's called "Impending Skid" which is the wheel rotating at a rate which is slower than normal rolling rotation. The tire is turning but not locked.

By claiming you're operating at impending skid with your rear you're just hoping you're doing something that is very difficult but not impossible.

As for warning newbies, that's just good sense. Let's be honest--you're pushing your self training as cirriculum, potentially safer and better than industry standard. That's fine. We're all entitled to our beliefs. HOWEVER if your cirriculum is pressing for dangerous behaviors then don't be shocked someone points it out. Locking the front isn't potentially dangerous--it's flat out dangerous. To claim you're skidding the front, and press it as motor/balance practice is unwise at best.

I look forward to your soon to be posted video. Please post more than one example of your braking so we can get a real feel for what's going.

There is a better way to time yourself than GPS. A 44ft timing box would work wonders for you. You just need someone to work a stopwatch for you! It solves things like GPS refresh rates, high/low averages and such. GPS is a wonderful way to sort top speed and average speeds but as Cranium points out--it's not ideal for this application.

Looking forward to the video! Be Safe!

***NEWBS, don't practice braking on public roads! You run the risk of being struck from behind OR of obstructing the flow of traffic. Beginner's habit parking lot practice IS the way to go!

 

[elemetal]

This is like watching all those rejected applicants to American Idol. It's sooooo horrible you turn away but you have to keep watching........

 

[CaptCrash]

This is like watching all those rejected applicants to American Idol. It's sooooo horrible you turn away but you have to keep watching........

I think I'm Paula...

You wanna be Simon?

***I wanna be Randy--DAWG, I'm going out for an 18,000 calorie lunch. Dawg.

 

[beginner]

I got somebody to watch my braking. I was skiding the rear, being too tender with the front brake. So more practice, don't want any flat spots on that rear tire. There don't seem to be any at this point. We took some video, don't have that yet, may be later today.

9:30 pm EST. Here is some video. Lame braking but at least it's enthusiastic. later in the day I got on the front brake more but nobody around to video. After the braking though is some figure 8 passes. Last year it always felt like a rollercoaster with a steering wheel. Now its feeling a lot smoother and easier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvHhJV3MhQ

 

[CaptCrash]

I got somebody to watch my braking. I was skiding the rear, being too tender with the front brake. So more practice, don't want any flat spots on that rear tire. There don't seem to be any at this point. We took some video, don't have that yet, may be later today.

Often what we think we feel isn't what's really going on under our bums. No biggie, that's the value of a second set of eyes!

 

[dbc]

I've read this thread, and my conclusion is that this guy is playing ya'll.
TROLL THREAD....

 

[B-Cuz]

The continuance of the conversation has officially reached, "Level Retarded."


One final note, have fun in your parking lot world.
/unsubscribed

 

[beginner]

The video, made today, I promised. I amended this to a previous post. Probably should have put it in a fresh post. The part of the video I like is the figure 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvHhJV3MhQ

 

[tzrider]

The video, made today, I promised. I amended this to a previous post. Probably should have put it in a fresh post. The part of the video I like is the figure 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvHhJV3MhQ

Have you noticed that your body position is different in left hand turns than in rights? In lefts you're leaning with the bike, where in rights you tend to push the bike under you more. Watch your inside elbow as you ride the figure 8. In lefts, you'll see that the elbow is bent and relaxed. In rights, the elbow is nearly straight.

The left hand body position gives you more arc for the amount of lean angle the bike has. If you want to do the same thing on the rights, consciously bend your right elbow as you enter the turn and your body will have to follow.

 

[beginner]

Have you noticed that your body position is different in left hand turns than in rights? In lefts you're leaning with the bike, where in rights you tend to push the bike under you more. Watch your inside elbow as you ride the figure 8. In lefts, you'll see that the elbow is bent and relaxed. In rights, the elbow is nearly straight.

The left hand body position gives you more arc for the amount of lean angle the bike has. If you want to do the same thing on the rights, consciously bend your right elbow as you enter the turn and your body will have to follow.

Thanks for the observation. First I'll have to make sure I'm seeing what you're talking about then go play with it. It's hard to get my video assistant into the parking lot. It wouldn't surprise me if I ride asymetrically. There are some other possible influences. The lot slopes in two directions, towards the entrance and downward away from the camera. Each of those circles has a different feel. If I reverse the direction of the pattern, on the turn back to the center I'm turning up the hill to get to the center which is surprisingly diifficult. I'll try to get a video of the reverse direction and see how that changes things and I'll try to follow your suggestion and see if that makes the two circles more alike.

 

[CaptCrash]

Have you noticed that your body position is different in left hand turns than in rights? In lefts you're leaning with the bike, where in rights you tend to push the bike under you more. Watch your inside elbow as you ride the figure 8. In lefts, you'll see that the elbow is bent and relaxed. In rights, the elbow is nearly straight.

Agreed. Also you might try and get your head around a little more. Bytheby, it's kinda wild how much fun it is to bury the front all the way--isn't it?