Some things to ponder about Frong's tagedy

[Gary J]

First off, and most important .......... I wish Sami a full and speedy recovery from this very unfortunate trackday incident! The injuries sound to be challenging ones ..... but as a young person, I'm sure that Sami will be able to recover well with time and proper physical therapy. Get well soon Sami!

Mental bandwidth consumed making the bike go fast on the straights is unavailable for finding and focusing on reference points, steering the bike, and developing a feel for what's going on at the contact patches. And I think it's wrong to encourage newbies to think about lap times until they've mastered the basic skills required to ride safely on the track.

Excellent observations Dan! I suspect it's not what a lot of trackday riders want to hear, a philosophy they will agree with ......... nor one to win a popularity contest for those (like yourself) encouraging it ....... but based on my observations over the last nine years that I've been an instructor at trackschool/trackday programs ....... I support you 100%! (We can dodge the flames together )

During the last few years I've observed the advent of inexpensive lap timer systems for riders to purchase and install on their bikes. As a result of the huge increase in the number of riders with these systems on their bikes, I've witnessed a strong focus that many of those riders end up having on "lap times" ...... from the moment they mount one on their bike. That often results in the rider(s) "pinning it to the stops" on every straight, and braking as late as possible before each and every corner. Not really an ideal recipe for non-racer type trackday riders to use, if they truly have a desire to improve their performance riding skills, and do so while increasing their safety margin.

The knowledge that there's a timer clicking away on the bike recording things, seems to make it difficult for some riders to have the disipline to "slow down" a bit, and work on developing specific technical riding skills.

I would honestly discourage newer trackday riders from putting a lap timer system on their bike. For "C" (and even "B") Group trackday riders, I would also discourage the all-to-tempting "chest thumping" form of comparing lap times with your buddies ...... for bragging rights. I've seen too many cases where riders have pushed themselves over their current skill limit, in an effort to one-up their buddy ..... as per the "lap times" on the clock.

I do believe that a few lap times taken by friends/helpers, over the entire course of the day, are OK to do ........ as they at least give some sort of measuring stick baseline for referencing at the next event. However a few snapshots of recorded laps, is a lot different than the ticker-tape string of constant lap time recordings that so many trackday riders (even very, VERY newbie, C-Group trackriders) accrue these days.

My advice (for anyone that cares) for riders trying to improve their performance riding skills at the track ...... is to focus all their attention on the details of riding the bike ...... or what I call the "racecraft" (braking, steering, body positioning, throttle control, line selection, visual focusing, etc.). If you get good instruction on the proven methods of optimizing these techniques on the bike, and focus 100% of your efforts on taking ownership of those skills (leaving the lap timers turned off, or at home) ........... the "lap times' will come ....... I guarantee it!

Gary J

 

[michaeln]

Many riders could benefit from less worry about lap times (god how I hate when the lap times bullshit starts!) and who is fast and worry more about who is good and who is safe.

I think Gio has the best, safest method. He doesn't use a lap timer, he *estimates* his fast lap times.

That way you can ride at a 2:45 pace at THill and estimate it at 2:05, go get your AFM license and brag about it, then never race.

This surely is the safe way to approach the sport!

Oh wait.... he crashes all over the place too.

Nevermind.

 

[Trackho]

Like velowood said, people progress impressively until they reach that first plateau. Anyone can break from 2:30s to 2:10s relatively quickly if they're consistent and good learners. But going from 2:10 and faster the improvement curve widens out to a much longer period of time. Just like the people who start weight training will get impressive gains right away..

Id say 2:05 on an RR or the like--It should also be mentioned that NOT crashing whilst reaching these goals probably a better indicator than actually reaching them, why??
1) The more you ride the more "weird" things you get to deal with, my 929 used to "miss" the downshift (ie finding a false neutral) to 4th entering T1---not crashing thru this was a "right of passage"
1.5) You learn NOT to fixate on crashing bikes
2) You get used to reacting faster at these speeds
3) You learn to get comfortable w/wheelspin
4) You learn the value of slow in---fast out as a "safer" way to reduce times
5) MOST IMPORTATANT:: You learn how important being smooth is under all circumstances

If someone loses it on the exit of T1--I am thinking that he probably "over-cooked" his entrance/apex speed or braked and stood up the bike--or ran out of track--or some combination of these-4) would have helped lesson the impact of both of these

Now finally this is mere speculation, NOT blame as I wasnt there or riding the bike---maybe something for new guys to think about I am sure Sammi will have some input at some time.

I hope for a continued speedy recovery

 

[JnglstTICAL]

Lap timers put the wreck in recreational trackdays.

Steve-o, pretty clever there buddy!!

 

[Holeshot]

I think Gio has the best, safest method. He doesn't use a lap timer, he *estimates* his fast lap times.

That way you can ride at a 2:45 pace at THill and estimate it at 2:05, go get your AFM license and brag about it, then never race.

This surely is the safe way to approach the sport!

Oh wait.... he crashes all over the place too.

Nevermind.

BWAHAHAHA!

 

[6th Gear]

Finally, I agree with something that you have said!!!

In general I think that overconfidence is the root cause of many of the crashes that we read and post here on BARF. It seems almost a given that when a rider makes progress that his or her confidence also makes some progress. Problems arise when the increases in confidence happen faster than the increases in skill. I have found the same thing happening to me. Fortunately my wakeup calls have been exciting moments and close ones rather than being lost and broken out in the desert with the vultures starting to circle.

Many riders could benefit from less worry about lap times (god how I hate when the lap times bullshit starts!) and who is fast and worry more about who is good and who is safe. Granted, going for years and years without dumping it is less exciting than a titanium rod in your femur or low low laptimes but so it goes. Nobody is paying me to ride and nobody will replace my bike if I wreck it except me and even a zillion hits to my personal get well thread would be little solace while in the hospital unable to work and earn money to pay the rent and having a lengthy recovery and rehab period to look forward to.

That being said, if you are really going to go for it the very best place to do that is the track where there are runoffs etc instead of Ford F350s waiting to catch you if you go wide.

 

[com3]

okay.... i haven't really visited barf in a while... the first thing i see is "fr0ngs tragic, freak accident..."

in my mind, i think "shit...fr0ng died! he was struck by a meteorite while riding the track!" then, as i read more and more replies to this thread...i think "oh shit! fr0ng didn't die, but he may have been struck by a meteorite, and he layed on the side of the track for 2 days broken and injured and noone knew he was there."

you guys gotta quit being so secretive about shit. what the hell happened to fr0ng?

i assume, realistically, he crashed in an unusual place to crash, then wasn't noticed by anyone that he crashed because he went far off the track... and he layed there for an hour?

meh?

tragic = someone died; motorcycle shop catches on fire; plane flies into a building

freak accident = you trip on a rake and are stabbed in the face by a rusted sprinkler head.

 

[KIDRR]

I don't see how you CAN'T judge a person's riding ability based on their crash experience. He's obviously not smooth, and crashes a lot.

So since you have crashed a bunch of times you are a crappy rider?

Pot calling the kettle black?

 

[rsrai]

running off the track at turn 1 is not a freak accident, i did it once too.

actually everything that happened to frong up to the crash happened to me, i went in tooooo hot, was not in a position where i could hve made the turn, so i stood it up and luckily went all the way to the tower and back to the track at the entrance of turn 2.

for me the reason i did that was i was passing a cousin, tried to go even though i couldnt (ego) and put myself in a position i did not have enough experience to handle. I was lucky i didnt fall. i think it was my second or third track day.

being out there for so long unnoticed is the freaky part, not running off turn 1.

 

[TheRobSJ]

I don't see how someone can judge a person's riding ability based ONLY on his/her crash experiences without ever riding with that person???

Ask anyone who's rode with Sami and they'll testify to his experience, skill, smoothness, etc. on the track. ANYONE who's led him, chopped it up, or tried to keep up. You guys gotta stop judging based on the stories of Barf.

No. I can totally judge a person based on their history. And so does the rest of society. To make a loose, unrelated comparison to show you how society does so...this is why registered sex offenders have to go tell all their neighbors who they are. Or any ex con in general probably isn't going to be given a job with any real responsibility. You are known by what your have done in the past. So you guys can say he's a good rider and a cool guy to hang out with all you want, I saw a year ago when I first started using his name as an antonym for squid that he was destined for major injury or death if he continued to persue his approach to the hobby. He's had a few get offs, and maybe that sobered him up a little. But apparently, not enough. Unless someone can tell me that his throttle stuck, or something other than rider error that caused all this? If not, then yeah...the tone of my post is exactly how you're all percieving it. Just a big giant "I told you so" from that asshole Rob.

And I don't have to ride with the guy to try and convince myself that he isn't a risk to himself and others on a bike. His reckless past is enough for me to think he's a risk. And to make that comparison again, let's say you have kids...would you let an ex child molestor move in next to your family? Nor do I need to hang out with the guy to make myself think he's actually "cool." He is the one who posted all his exploits and mishaps on a motorcycle when he really should have kept them away from public knowledge out of sheer humilty. And he is the one who made such a grand production of how shameful it is for me to live at home even though he does the same damn thing...and a hypocrite is no "cool" guy in my book.

So with all that hate being said. I do wish the kid a full recovery. I don't know if that's possible with that kind of damage to the leg bones, but I can wish. What I don't wish for is for him to throw a leg over a bike again. Some of you can say that he should get back on the horse and so on...but when the horse kicks you that many times, someone's trying to tell you that somes things just aren't meant to be. Racing cars is a little safer, but also punish overconfidence too. I think he should become a gigilo. Chicks dig confidence don't they?

Rob

 

[donoman]

Didn't you mean "synonym" not "antonym"?

antonym

n : a word that expresses a meaning opposed to the meaning of another word, in which case the two words are antonyms of each other; "to him the antonym of `gay' was `depressed'"

 

[John]

No. I can totally judge a person based on their history. you guys can say he's a good rider and a cool guy to hang out with all you want, I saw a year ago when I first started using his name as an antonym for squid that he was destined for major injury or death if he continued to persue his approach to the hobby. He's had a few get offs, and maybe that sobered him up a little. But apparently, not enough...

And he is the one who made such a grand production of how shameful it is for me to live at home even though he does the same damn thing...and a hypocrite is no "cool" guy in my book

I didn't mention anything about him being a cool guy to hang out with, you're making this thread about Sami when it should stay on the topic of novice riders at the track. You seem like you're just looking for words or phrases to find a reason to attack Sami??

Obviously you can't be convinced not to judge people by their history, but put Sami aside in this case since you're sticking to a single case so strongly. I was right in front of him, I'm about even with him in terms of track skill and experience, and I took the corner too hot just like he did. I got lucky and kept it leaned, he obviously didn't. I don't have a history of crashing so how does your logic apply to me?

I fucked up and blew the turn but got lucky, he did the same but with horrible consequences. I still can't understand how you can judge someone you never rode with (not only him) but obviously me in this case, when there's AFM, AMA and CCS riders that can easily attest to our experience.

If you're still offended that you two had some bad trades in words about you living at home and things, why do you have to bring that bitterness into this thread? That has nothing to do with his accident or the topic of this thread. You're getting back to flaming without reason/logic again, I thought you were actually on track to having decent discussion from your posts.

 

[faz]

I chip in my 2 cents here...

I used to always think crashing on a bike was a bad thing, not acceptable, totally bad no matter where it happened. After being on motorcycle boards for a while, it seems like I have grown a tolerance for crashing... hearing others report their crash and others talk about it like it is a "normal" thing, you know, everyone does it, everyone blows a turn sometime or another, "there are two kind of riders..."

I totally believe that the idea of 'track is a safer place to go fast' has somehow translated into 'track is a safe place' in the back of many riders' minds, including may be myself. There is a false sense of security that goes with the "take it to the track" comment that we so often hear about here: "You want to go fast and act all squidly, take it to the track!" can be translated to "it is ok to go fast on the track, (even if you don't have the skills to do so correctly yet.)" I am not saying that is the intended message behind those comments, but more an inferred message.

No.

If you don't have the skills yet, you will crash no matter where you are; on hwy 9, hwy 25, or Thunderhill. Sometimes you are lucky and walk away from your crash, sometimes you take a helicopter ride, sometimes you get to meet your God in person a lot sooner than you anticipated.

Overenthusiasm is the main reason behind many accidents in sports that are inherently dangerous to begin with, like motorcycling or skiing. It can be a main cause of writing checks that your skills can't cash.

In frong's case, it could have been he walked away from his crash, which would have been followed by him posting about it and being flamed like crazy here on BARF and everywhere else, with a ton of "I told you so" posts.(I don't know how he does it, I would have stopped posting about crashes and getting flamed for them a long time ago if I were him. I applaud him for that.)

It could have just as easily been a RIP thread, with comments like "this is a freak accident, no one ever died missing that turn on Thunderhill."

As it sits right now, it is a "Get well soon, we support you" kind of thread.

Without wanting to flame frong, and I hope he reads this someday when he is all better, the first time I read his comments on his laptimes, (very early stages of him starting to go to the track), and many times after that, with emphasis on thinking about racing, and with encouragements from certain track instructors and organizers, saying "yeh, you should be racing next year" to a person who has had only a few trackdays... sent chills down my spine.

(see this post and many others like it:
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/f...perpage=15&highlight=thunderhill&pagenumber=1
)

Freak accident or not, one can learn a lot by: doing a search on BARF, reading a few older threads, looking at these newer get well soon threads, and looking at one's own approach to this sport.

Sorry, this post is like a ton of thoughts dumped without any continuation. (why should it be different than any other posts of mine? )

 

[fr0ng]

rob, its hard for me to type so im gonna keep it short.


all day id been having suspension issues and ended up spending the day to fix it. i got new types of tires and a steering damper. the damper was sending feedback from my steering throughout me entire bike which wasnt too great. i wasnt even running a "fast" pace becaus i was working on fixing the problems. i dont remember crashing yet, but i do remember getting some nasty sgaking throughout the entire bike as i was going over t1. i constantly had to fight the bike and remember exiting wider than i wanted to several times.

the point is you dont know how hard i was riding nor do you know or even understand the circumstances...so please stfu

 

[com3]

okay.... i haven't really visited barf in a while... the first thing i see is "fr0ngs tragic, freak accident..."

in my mind, i think "shit...fr0ng died! he was struck by a meteorite while riding the track!" then, as i read more and more replies to this thread...i think "oh shit! fr0ng didn't die, but he may have been struck by a meteorite, and he layed on the side of the track for 2 days broken and injured and noone knew he was there."

you guys gotta quit being so secretive about shit. what the hell happened to fr0ng?

i assume, realistically, he crashed in an unusual place to crash, then wasn't noticed by anyone that he crashed because he went far off the track... and he layed there for an hour?

meh?

tragic = someone died; motorcycle shop catches on fire; plane flies into a building

freak accident = you trip on a rake and are stabbed in the face by a rusted sprinkler head.

fuck all....no one is gonna answer me?

 

[F4iChic]

And now the slow old lady chimes in with her .02

As most of you know I have been doing trackdays for the past, oh, three years. I just attended a Keigwin's Novice two dayer (why - cos we can all still learn something yes?) and I was horrified to hear all the talk of "improving speed" from the instructors. Horrified I tell ya. Especially when some of the students were asking the most basic questions regarding riding.

Talk of "early on the gas, hard drive out, late braking" yada yada yada. Laptimes, blah blah. Learn the fucking lines first. Learn the goddam track, learn how to ride predictably, even if you are going 40mph!!! Don't pin it on the straights, swoop all the way to the outstide of a turn, pull a fucking stoppie going into the turn, cause mayhem behind ya, and then fucking pin it again!!!. Sure, your laptimes might be faster than mine, but I'd sooner be slower and the kind of rider who isn't scaring themselves shitless thru every turn Yes, I bought a laptimer this year, where is it? In some toolbox somewhere, I neither know nor care. I am a smooth consistent predictable rider who rides within (or probably pretty far below) her limits. Do I know my laptimes? Yes I do. I saw some considerable improvement this weekend, and I only know cos someone followed me without me knowing. I applied two of the go-faster techniques and they worked. Did it have a cost? Yep, my lines were getting screwed up

I'm rambling

All I can say is I agree with SteveCo.

 

[karlitos]

I chip in my 2 cents here...
In frong's case, it could have been he walked away from his crash, which would have been followed by him posting about it and being flamed like crazy here on BARF and everywhere else, with a ton of "I told you so" posts.....

It could have just as easily been a RIP thread, with comments like "this is a freak accident, no one ever died missing that turn on Thunderhill."

As it sits right now, it is a "Get well soon, we support you" kind of thread.

Good points.

However, i think Fr0ng's crash/s are due to over enthusiasm, but not over confidence. If confident, he would have most likly not run off the track. He ran off the track because he had serious doubt -- as most do -- exceptions noted (ie. bike crossed up, wheel hop...etc).

In my case, i am too chicken to have over-confidence; feck, i have no confidence! I need some confidence and enthusiasm

 

[selong]

Some great points here so I will add my .01 (I am a cheap ass)..

A. Tape over your lap timer if it is on your dash. Look at it after the session. You will know instinctively if you are faster than normal or at your 'comfortable' pace. You will find that you will be within a couple of seconds consistently and that is your current (aforementioned) plateau to work from. I find having the counter in my face is nothing but a distraction. Concentrate more on finding your markers and hitting them again and again or slightly different lines in corners for safety and passing.

B. I have run off in Turn 1 was well. I braked when I should've accelerated and blew my line. It was my first time on ANY track that day for me. The freak of frOng's wreck was the suntan he was working on and where he ended up. Glad he is alive... and typing with one hand free... but where is that other hand?

C. Whenever you change rubber, check out your suspension set up. Different types and makes of tires WILL DO different things with your set up. I was happy as punch with 208 GP-A's and went to Rennsports and the bike was all over the place... that is how I learned to reset suspension. Once I was dialed in for this tire change, the world was all roses again.

D. Comments have been made that fast does not equal good. The perfect case in this point is Chris Ulrich. If you read any of the propaganda about him in Roadracing World (most written by himself or relatives) you would think he is an up and coming hot shot. The reality is that he crashes ALOT. I mean ALOT. Look at any piece of information about his racing, practice etc etc. Crash, crash, crash. No wonder why there is no factory ride with his name on it as fast as we are lead to believe he is. Chris is fast (especially relative to me and you) but I would NOT consider him good.

E. Not to frOng specifically but to people in general. Folks tend to live life pretty consistently in most areas. If you are a braggart about how hot your girl is, you will probably also be a braggart about how fast you can drive a car and how you have the best new cell phone etc etc. This is a personal expression thing and one you have now forced yourself to live up to this characteristic again and again. The internet may be the worst example of this since most folks tend to unleash their 'true' selves when they can be more anonymous. Point being if you are reckless, incomplete and aggressive in something like writing posts on BARF then it tends to also manifest itself in other parts of your life.. ie riding.

F. When we are young, we are invincible and heal fast. As we get older with more responsibilities, mortality smacks us in the face. It helps explain why younger people "learn" quicker. They are more willing to take risks than us old farts. I am not sure it makes them better in the long-term but this will never change. Without it, we might never have armies...

G. Final point, and not to poke fun at frOng... when can we add spell check to BARF's posting screen and make its use mandatory?

Holy crap that was a lot longer then I expected… my apologies

 

[morthrane]

god how I hate when the lap times
bullshit starts!

Hey guys, keep up with the times. After all, as one BARFer put it, Thunderhill lap times are turning into the motorcycling equivalent of penis size.

"OMG I'm only doing 2:30's at thunderhill! People will think I have stones the size of raisins! "





Faz, don't listen to the naysayers. That was one of the best posts I've read on BARF in a long, long time.






--Daniel (who's been to the track a grand total of four occasions, still doesn't know what his laptimes are, and has broken 85mph down the Thill front straight ONCE ) (who also really doesn't give a flying fuck about your thunderhill lap times either )

 

[Rambeezi]

I think you guys are looking way too deep into this crash only because it was frong that was at the helm. The man can't seem to do / say / post anything without some of the BARF community trying to read between the lines. Obviously there is something is to be learned from this incident but can't it be done without trying to figure out frong's state of mind / attitude / persona / ..etc.?? Let's look into the actual crash without trying to get all Freudian.

Just my opinion.....