Speed inflation

[Cycle61]

For all you know he's just trying to get his balls to unstick from his thigh.

 

[ThinkFast]

Interesting thread. My $0.02:
- Physical conditioning - modern roadracers are hard bodied, physically superior specimens, which is a requirement to pilot 200+hp bikes around a modern course. I don't know what kind of shape Ago was in back in the day, but I suspect it was not the same kind of shape the MotoGP field is in today.

- Riding style - the whole hanging off/knee dragging style of racing is relatively new, and arose with radial tires IIRC. Not sure how long it would take a racer from the bias tire days to get the hang of hanging off.

- Traction management computers - I've heard it said that one reason Stoner was so fast last year compared to others was because of his age - he grew up racing with electronics on his bikes that older racers like Rossi had to learn about and adapt to in terms of riding style. This could be another challenge for a rider like Agostini. Dunno.

Otoh, the fact that Schumi can get around a track so quickly on a MotoGP bike does seem to support the idea that the fast guys are just plain fast - doesn't matter what you put them in/on.

 

[kiltwearinfool]

I have to agree with the statement about rider conditioning. I remember Kenny Roberts talking about how he was the first racer (as he always claims) to really take racing seriously. He talked about how many of the other racers - Barry Sheene specifically - would be out drinking and smoking the night before a race. Nowadays, a rider's body is just as highly tuned as the motorcycle. As much as you hate to admit it, someone that's in tip-top shape is going to have an easier time dealing with the forces generated by today's racebikes.

I also agree with the statement about tire advancement being a big part of motorcycle speed. Advancements in tire design are often identified as the limiting factor on a racebike. Witness previous eras of GP racing, where Doohan was sliding the back end around. Tire technology improved, and people started sliding less. Also how some tracks favored different tire manufacturers before the spec rule. A few years back, Michelins were the dominant tire in GP. Then Bridgestone started making serious improvements, and then everyone wanted to be on them.

I disagree about electronics. I hold Jorge Lorenzo and Turn 10 at Laguna up as an example. He's high-sided twice in that corner, with painful results. Why? Shouldn't his TC have caught him? According to people in the know, both were a "closed throttle" getoff. Jorge was off the brakes and off the throttle, essentially coasting through the corner. The bike started to slip, and because he didn't have the throttle open, the TC computer wasn't getting any input from the wheel sensors. The bike started to slip, and since he wasn't on the throttle, he couldn't correct it that way. Hello, high side. It's been observed that many racers from pre-electronic era have their TC turned down pretty low. This according to tests in Roadracing World. Are they luddites, or do they just trust their own instincts over the computer?

I for one believe a racer from 30+ years ago would have no problem being fast today, with the caveat that they haven't completely dropped out of riding. I've been passed and out-braked more than once by Reg Pridmore, while he was riding a VFR (He's the AMA's first Superbike Champion). While it's a humbling experience, it reinforces the idea that if you keep practicing and refining your skills, you keep getting better and better.

I think of this: If the heroes of 30+ years ago weren't still good at racecraft, why would they be retained as rider coaches and factory consultants? Schwantz, Roberts, Rainey, Mamola, etc.

Oh yeah: Props to my friend Bob Kohl, who landed a 20 foot backflip off a ramp in his front yard riding a KX80 in 1993. http://expn.go.com/athletes/bios/KOHL_BOB.html

 

[kiltwearinfool]

Vincent FTW!

 

[SuperMike]

Vincent FTW!

SWEET!!!

 

[clutchslip]

So there's something to the left foot hanging off when Rossi goes into a turn? Notice how that shyte's gone viral? I swear everybody's doing it now.

I can understand the feel. I doubt the REAL effectiveness.

Interesting thread. My $0.02:
- Physical conditioning - modern roadracers are hard bodied, physically superior specimens, ...
- Traction management computers - I've heard it said that one reason Stoner was so fast last year compared to others was because of his age - he grew up racing with electronics on his bikes that older racers like Rossi had to learn about and adapt to in terms of riding style. This could be another challenge for a rider like Agostini. Dunno.
...

You don't think there were riders in shape before YOU started paying attention? You even contradict yourself. And tell me how having traction control could make Agostini slower? That makes no sense. No offense.

I have to agree with the statement about rider conditioning. I remember Kenny Roberts talking about how he was the first racer (as he always claims) to really take racing seriously. He talked about how many of the other racers - Barry Sheene specifically - would be out drinking and smoking the night before a race. Nowadays, a rider's body is just as highly tuned as the motorcycle. As much as you hate to admit it, someone that's in tip-top shape is going to have an easier time dealing with the forces generated by today's racebikes.

Plenty of guys were in shape 30 years ago. No offense to King Kenny, but he ALWAYS claims to be the first. And Sheene is a terrible example to use.

Barry Sheene was one of the phenomenons that comes along and you just shake your head and go, "how does he DO that." I would bet a year's wages that if we put Barry on a bike, half drunk, that he would STILL leave urine stains on most people behind him.

I saw Dick Mann, finish a flat track race with 3rd degree burns on his hand. Let's see Pedrosa do that one. In fact, let's see ANY current MotoGP guy besides Hayden, ride flat track. That would be good.

 

[crank1000]

Fast is fast. That's why Pastrana can win rally-x and moto-x, as well as almost any other moto related race with no problem. It's a fundamental understanding of physics in action. You can feel where the limits are, and when you can push them. Doesn't matter what you're riding/driving, as long as the playing field is level.

Mario Andretti is another example of someone who will just win regardless of what machine you put him in. As long as he's racing against vehicles of equal speed, handling, etc.

 

[MR662]

I think technology is the biggest thing moving racers to be faster and faster. Each year lap records are broken at tracks as the bikes get faster and better handling.

I sometimes look at the AFM site and see what racers times were years ago. Its hard to accurately compare, because some of the tracks changed from many years ago. Yet, even just 3 years ago, the times the fast guys turned at a track are very simialr to what they did this year. Yet the bikes have so much new technology even in the last few years.

 

[Z3n]

The real question is...how do you define fast? I'd say that the former GP racers of yesteryear are probably still pretty damn quick, and shumi can get within 5 seconds of GP lap times, but...5 seconds is getting lapped in a motoGP length race. That's embarrassing.

Fast compared to your typical street rider? Absolutely. Fast compared to a modern racer? I don't think so.

 

[clutchslip]

The real question is...how do you define fast? I'd say that the former GP racers of yesteryear are probably still pretty damn quick, and shumi can get within 5 seconds of GP lap times, but...5 seconds is getting lapped in a motoGP length race. That's embarrassing.

Fast compared to your typical street rider? Absolutely. Fast compared to a modern racer? I don't think so.

And why would this be?

Does this mean:
Jim Thorpe, if he was born 20 years ago, wouldn't be competitive in the Olympics, today? Babe Ruth couldn't hit as many home runs, today? Marcus Allen couldn't run touchdowns, if he joined the NFL for the first time, next season?

Please, someone explain to me, why you think that a couple of decades in time have changed human abilities so much.

 

[Human Ills]

And why would this be?

Does this mean:
Jim Thorpe, if he was born 20 years ago, wouldn't be competitive in the Olympics, today? Babe Ruth couldn't hit as many home runs, today? Marcus Allen couldn't run touchdowns, if he joined the NFL for the first time, next season?

Please, someone explain to me, why you think that a couple of decades in time have changed human abilities so much.

I think once you leave the realm of motorsports, the majority of athletes from yesteryear wouldn't be as competitive. I think football players are much bigger and faster now, for example.

 

[Z3n]

And why would this be?

Does this mean:
Jim Thorpe, if he was born 20 years ago, wouldn't be competitive in the Olympics, today? Babe Ruth couldn't hit as many home runs, today? Marcus Allen couldn't run touchdowns, if he joined the NFL for the first time, next season?

Please, someone explain to me, why you think that a couple of decades in time have changed human abilities so much.

Please, someone explain to me, why you think that a couple of decades in time have not changed human abilities motorcycles so much.

Does that explain it well enough for you?

The problems that you face riding a 1960's bike as opposed to a modern literbike on modern tires are completely different. Have you ever tried to ride a 1975 CB400 fast up a twisty road or on a track? Have you ever ridden a motorcycle fast enough to qualify for the A group at the track?

The old riders had a completely different skillset required for riding a completely different style and type of bike at the limit. That's not counting the absolutely absurd amount of tech that would go into a real race bike, and the concerns that you're going to have with suspension, electronics, traction control, telemetry, so on, and so forth. Riding a motorcycle these days isn't just about balls and going fast, it's about an ability to understand what's going on with the motorcycle and when and how to fix it. Not just with suspension tuning but with electronics. I don't think any of the old racers are going to have the backround or the skillset to get those last few seconds out of a GP bike.

As I said, I'm sure they could go street fast, track fast. But I don't think they could go race winning fast. They've simply got the wrong background for it.

This is not to mention the advantages that we have from modern training, health, nutrition, sports psychology, etc. It doesn't have to do with the progression of people, but the progression of understanding people.

Here's my question for you: Why in the last 3 decades are people living up to 20 years longer? The answer to that question is part of the reason why modern racers are faster than older racers.

 

[PhaTeLeSS]

Please, someone explain to me, why you think that a couple of decades in time have changed human abilities so much.

Agreed. Evolution does not occur that quickly at all.

The bikes have changed, but human abilities really haven't.