SPLIT from CA: Should we always ride in the right automobile tire track?

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..........Always riding the right wheel track is clearly simple. ...............................

Always riding in the right wheel track is easy to verify. Ease of verification means that it is easy to practice and improve. Until you can keep the bike on an obvious, arbitrary 6-inch wide path there's no point in talking about hitting some invisible "line". Just another opportunity to fool yourself. ...................................................................... The obvious positives are that the right wheel track is usually free of debris and oncoming vehicles. The obvious negatives are that you can lose sight lines on right hand turns with steep banks and that you are closer to "the edge" on left hand turns. Both negatives are strongly mitigated by conservative speed and the 4-second rule.

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But you're implying that the Right tire track is the safest in all circumstances here; from my experience, nothing could be farther from the truth, especially when you're a new rider and your survival depends upon your visibility as a potential hazard to other motorists. Everything I've read and experienced has led me to believe the right tire track to be a dangerous place for a single Motorcyclist to ride in traffic, for example.

Why must a beginner be told to concentrate on RH lines?

Why can a beginner not be entrusted to provide himself the lane position that allows the best lines of sight?

I see smm's advice as comprehensive, and inclusive of all factors. Sure, you can argue each individually, but he makes a good case.

Maybe I'm liking the concept because I often do something similar. If I'm having a bad day, sometimes I step back and just keep the bike 1ft to the left of the white line. Unless I can do THAT, without expending a lot of brainpower, attempting much else is somewhat futile.


I will agree that the ability to stay in the tire track shouldn't be the priority, just something to aim for.

 

[Stormdragon]

But you're implying that the Right tire track is the safest in all circumstances here; from my experience, nothing could be farther from the truth, especially when you're a new rider and your survival depends upon your visibility as a potential hazard to other motorists. Everything I've read and experienced has led me to believe the right tire track to be a dangerous place for a single Motorcyclist to ride in traffic, for example.

I'm agreeing with this. IMHO, the right wheel track is a terrible place to be while in traffic. I like the left wheel track, and prefer to be in the leftmost lane if there's a choice. I maximize my visibility, and minimize my chances of having a car merge into me.

On a single lane road, with curves, I again feel that the rightmost track, in a left turn is a lousy place to be as well. It's always easier to widen your line through a corner, than it is to tighten your line. Especially if you're trying to make an avoidance maneuver, and you want to maximize your traction.

Now on a right hand turn, I'll agree with you, but for the reasons stated above. I want to be able to change my line without having to go over the line.

 

[masameet]

Well, I'm curious.

If you're riding staggered in a group, with like 4 or less seconds between riders, and you're the inside rider, do you swing out to the left track side every time a right-hand turn comes up or do you stay on the right side?

When it's raining and you're the inside rider in a group, how much of the right side do you ride in?

In riding certain narrow twisties, like Morgan Territory and Wildcat Canyon in the East Bay, and Mt. Hamilton and China Grade in the South Bay, do you crowd the middle of the road like there's no DY?

A couple years ago a BARFer PMed me about building road sense. I guess that's the term. He asked if I could ride the inside (right) side of a lane and still stay controlled. He was partly trying to get me to stop crowding the DY (one of my newbie mistakes).

But I didn't understand about not crowding the DY until about nine months later while doing a coached, right-side only climb up Mt. Hamilton. What convinced me? Well, on the ride up I found myself drifting back to the outside (left) lane. And wouldn't you know it? At one point I and a white Ford truck almost bounced off of each other, as we were both too close to the DY in making a tight turn. And then later, from the observatory parking lot, the coach rider and I watched as the Mt. H firetruck took over the whole road in negotiating that last nasty uphill right-hander. Granted, seeing that firetruck potentially panicking, if not wiping out, a rider coming downhill was mostly in my imagination. But if we're to train for "What if?" scenarios, I think that's a good one with respect to adhering only to the outside-inside-outside philosophy on narrow twisty (and dare I say uphill?) roads.

 

[rapidrobbie]

On twisty two lane roads,NEVER staggered,no room for that

 

[smm]

Why must a beginner be told to concentrate on RH lines?

Why can a beginner not be entrusted to provide himself the lane position that allows the best lines of sight?

How do you quantify "allows the best lines of sight." such that a beginner can check his performance against some objective measure?

The OP's problem was not sight lines, it was driving off the road on a left-hand corner where he had completely adequate visibility.

FWIW, the title is far more general than what I advised, but I see that at least one person has cottoned on to that.

 

[rapidrobbie]

How do you quantify "allows the best lines of sight." such that a beginner can check his performance against some objective measure?The OP's problem was not sight lines, it was driving off the road on a left-hand corner where he had completely adequate visibility.
FWIW, the title is far more general than what I advised, but I see that at least one person has cottoned on to that.

Then the op's problem is not looking where he wants to go,not looking through the turn

 

[Enchanter]

How do you quantify "allows the best lines of sight." such that a beginner can check his performance against some objective measure?

Look as far as possible through the turn. look to the vanishing point.

Please quantify how riding where you recommend is supposed to build skills related to avoiding the crash that started this conversation.

The OP's problem was not sight lines, it was driving off the road on a left-hand corner where he had completely adequate visibility.

And your advice was to have him ride closer to the right shoulder of the road.

Please share with us the specific reason why riding in the right wheel track would have helped avoid that specific crash.

 

[russ69]

Well, I'm curious. If you're riding staggered in a group, with like 4 or less seconds between riders, and you're the inside rider, do you swing out to the left track side every time a right-hand turn comes up or do you stay on the right side?

Group rides just suck but the rule is to go single file on a twisty road and maintain a 4 second gap. I never liked the group mentality, so I'm either at the front or riding clean-up, I try not to get into the middle of the group. I'm up front if everybody wants to ride The Pace and not gas it down the straights. If the pack wants "to play", then they will slip by and I'll just ride clean-up.
You are riding the bike, you have to ride in a manner that is comfortable for you.

P.S. Watch your six and ease over to the right on the straights so faster guys can pass.

 

[smm]

Look as far as possible through the turn. look to the vanishing point.

That is not answering the question. All lane positions, even across the DY, have a vanishing point and, yes, it is a very good thing to look at. If "lane positioning for best visibility" is a criteria that you want a beginner to apply to their riding, how do they objectively determine what "best" is?

Please quantify how riding where you recommend is supposed to build skills related to avoiding the crash that started this conversation.

I already did. It is easy to verify and thus easy to practice and highly conducive to forming an accurate estimation of one's ability to control a motorcycle.

And your advice was to have him ride closer to the right shoulder of the road.

My complete advice to him was to ride an exact line well within the posted speed limit while keeping a 4-second line of sight. Yes, that exact line is sometimes closer to the edge than other lines.

 

[Karbon]

That is not answering the question. All lane positions, even across the DY, have a vanishing point and, yes, it is a very good thing to look at. If "lane positioning for best visibility" is a criteria that you want a beginner to apply to their riding, how do they objectively determine what "best" is?

In theory, the line of sigh that gives you the most amount of time to react properly to anything for the given pace.

 

[Enchanter]

That is not answering the question. All lane positions, even across the DY, have a vanishing point and, yes, it is a very good thing to look at. If "lane positioning for best visibility" is a criteria that you want a beginner to apply to their riding, how do they objectively determine what "best" is?

By listening to others, by reading books (he already read at least one book that explained what the best lane position in regards to visibility), by receiving training. Unfortunately it appears that his friends may have let him down.

I already did. It is easy to verify and thus easy to practice and highly conducive to forming an accurate estimation of one's ability to control a motorcycle.

Placing the motorcycle in a position for a better line of sight is easy to verify and much safer than remaining in one position at all costs. And no, you have not answered how your suggestion would have prevented this crash.

My complete advice to him was to ride an exact line in the right tire track of automobiles well within the posted speed limit while keeping a 4-second line of sight. Yes, that exact line is sometimes closer to the edge than other lines.

You did not repost your complete advice. I fixed it for you. You fail to accept the weaknesses and danger that your advice brings with it. I have repeatedly explained my point in an effort to inspire you to do the same, but you are either unable to, or refuse to.

How do you explain the overwhelming opposition to your advice that is found in this thread? Riders with more time, miles, training, skills, and experience disagree with you and somehow you still feel that you have found the magic that the rest of us have missed. Amazing.

 

[smm]

In theory, the line of sigh that gives you the most amount of time to react properly to anything for the given pace.

Theory is already present in sufficient quantity. The OP has read an excellent book full of theory (Proficient Motorcycling).

When choosing lane position for a late apex right hand turn, one is trading off speed, sight line distance, and proximity to the double yellow. How does a beginner determine that he is doing this correctly?

My answer is that there is no way for a beginner to make this determination.

 

[1footdown]

I'm a returning rider, and have just passed 500 miles on my 'new' bike after a break of over 5 years. My 'new' bike is different than my old F2, with different handling, different power band, and I have a 'different' body and reaction time now that I am in my 40s.

I have gone onto 35 and 84 3 times in the last month, getting used to my bike, rolling the throttle, seeing through the turns (looking to the vanishing point) and 'tweaking' the 650r's suspension.

I have several comments, having been contemplating the lane position during my rides. My most recent ride on Wednesday was south on 35 from 92 to Alice's, I was in the downhill twisties just before coming to Alice's and was riding in the right tire track due to some fast cars hugging the DY coming uphill on the other side. My preference would have been in the left tire track or middle area prior to the right hand turns for visibility and taking a closer line at the apex. I think when exiting a left-hander for a right-hander, the line you ride sort of smooths out inside of the line of the road. I prefer not to 'stay in parallel' with the painted lines the whole ride, if that makes sense - I look for a smooth line to transition the curves. I don't think I ever ride in 1 tire track the whole time.

One of the right-hander's there has a big dip-like pot hole, that I went right into, and due to a too-soft rear shock setting, almost launched me. I was going about 30, (vs last week when I was taking those turns faster, maybe 40-45), since riding in the right track was making those downhill right hand turns a little too tight for my comfort and me drifting into the DY after the turn. Nonetheless, I was cross with myself about being in the right tire track and hitting that dip/pot hole (I must have fixated on it, since i was in that track)

Then I turned down 84 to La Honda and back.

Same thing coming up 84 from La Honda towards Alice's, at around 5pm, trucks coming the other way were cutting the turns and drifting over the DY onto my lane, resulting in me not being able to pick my 'preferred' line of sight line, but rather slowing WAY down, and riding between the middle and right tire track at times.

Not my most 'challenging' ride (as far as picking and riding smooth turns) - but challenging in the way that I rode safely by sharing the road with cyclists to the right and cars/trucks to my left coming the opposite way and crossing over into my lane at times.

My thought for riding are - slowing down to ride 'my ride' for the conditions of the day - and riding to the best line of sight - selecting best lane position.

 

[Stormdragon]

How do you explain the overwhelming opposition to your advice that is found in this thread? Riders with more time, miles, training, skills, and experience disagree with you and somehow you still feel that you have found the magic that the rest of us have missed. Amazing.

Warning Will Robinson! We are fast approaching Beginner territory!

My answer is that there is no way for a beginner to make this determination.

I will agree with you there. But instead of trying to come up with some rule that only works part of the time, I'd encourage said New Rider to apply the gray matter to the problem, and come up with a solution. Unbending Rules, lead to problems. In personal life, as well as society.

 

[Motech]

Well, I'm curious.

If you're riding staggered in a group, with like 4 or less seconds between riders, and you're the inside rider, do you swing out to the left track side every time a right-hand turn comes up or do you stay on the right side?

When it's raining and you're the inside rider in a group, how much of the right side do you ride in?

Simple. Ride your own ride. When the road gets more challenging, formations and gap times no longer matter.

If you're focused on social form (and that's really all a staggered formation is), you're cheating yourself out of proper focus on your lines and strategies. Trust me... The guy behind you should not care if your lane positions change in the rwisties, and if you can't provide for a comfortable cushion in your happy speed zone between you and the guy in front of you because he's focusing on form, pass his poky ass.

 

[Motech]

How do you quantify "allows the best lines of sight." such that a beginner can check his performance against some objective measure?

The OP's problem was not sight lines, it was driving off the road on a left-hand corner where he had completely adequate visibility.

FWIW, the title is far more general than what I advised, but I see that at least one person has cottoned on to that.

How is vision not an objective measure? You simply position yourself for the safest, maximum field of vision through the turn and look far ahead. If OP fears running off the road, then OP needs to slow down and become more comfortable with leaning.

 

[DataDan]

The Brits teach riders to consider 4 factors in choosing lane position on a twisty road:

1. Safety. By this they mean don't get yourself splattered by an oncoming vehicle.
2. Sightline. Position yourself to get as much information as you can about roadway ahead.
3. Surface. Stay away from the potholes, gravel, greasy spots, etc.
4. Radius. Choose a line that requires less grip at a given speed. The bigger the radius, the less grip and lean angle you need.

These are presented in the book Motorcycle Roadcraft as a priority ranking. Not getting splattered is more important than a minimal-grip radius. (BTW, I'm doing this from memory and may have it slightly wrong, but I'm pretty sure about 1 and 4.)

Staying in the right tire track is an easy rule to remember, but it will often put the rider at a disadvantage.

In a decreasing-radius right-hand turn, he will have to tighten up as the turn progresses, possibly causing him to run wide and cross the centerline at exit. Staying wider until the turn reveals itself gives the rider working room on the inside to deal with a tightening radius.

In a right-hander that wraps around an outcropping, the rider's view through the turn is the absolute worst from the right tire track, possibly hiding a hazard that will appear suddenly.

There is sometimes gravel on the right side of the road in a right-hand turn.

In a left-hander, trying to stay in the right tire track can produce what I call "edge anxiety", worry about proximity to the shoulder. He's trying to look to the left, through the turn, but that takes his line of sight away from the shoulder. Of the two demands, focusing on the shoulder--the most immediate hazard he's dealing with--may win out, diverting attention from the path through the turn.


There may be some hypothetical situation where a rider is so inept that the only rule he can be expected to follow is "follow the right tire track". But if he can't quickly progress from there to a more complete strategy, he should probably reconsider his choice of hobbies.

 

[Enchanter]

The Brits teach riders to consider 4 factors in choosing lane position on a twisty road:

1. Safety. By this they mean don't get yourself splattered by an oncoming vehicle.
2. Sightline. Position yourself to get as much information as you can about roadway ahead.
3. Surface. Stay away from the potholes, gravel, greasy spots, etc.
4. Radius. Choose a line that requires less grip at a given speed. The bigger the radius, the less grip and lean angle you need.

These are presented in the book Motorcycle Roadcraft as a priority ranking. Not getting splattered is more important than a minimal-grip radius. (BTW, I'm doing this from memory and may have it slightly wrong, but I'm pretty sure about 1 and 4.)

Staying in the right tire track is an easy rule to remember, but it will often put the rider at a disadvantage.

In a decreasing-radius right-hand turn, he will have to tighten up as the turn progresses, possibly causing him to run wide and cross the centerline at exit. Staying wider until the turn reveals itself gives the rider working room on the inside to deal with a tightening radius.

In a right-hander that wraps around an outcropping, the rider's view through the turn is the absolute worst from the right tire track, possibly hiding a hazard that will appear suddenly.

There is sometimes gravel on the right side of the road in a right-hand turn.

In a left-hander, trying to stay in the right tire track can produce what I call "edge anxiety", worry about proximity to the shoulder. He's trying to look to the left, through the turn, but that takes his line of sight away from the shoulder. Of the two demands, focusing on the shoulder--the most immediate hazard he's dealing with--may win out, diverting attention from the path through the turn.


There may be some hypothetical situation where a rider is so inept that the only rule he can be expected to follow is "follow the right tire track". But if he can't quickly progress from there to a more complete strategy, he should probably reconsider his choice of hobbies.

Brilliant!