The trail braking thread

[T100]

The thing that irritates me about this topic is the way people come across talking about it. It's this arrogance thing about the trail braking.

With the exception of ontherearwheel, who posted in another thread on this topic, that if your using it on the street, you are going to fast.

The mass implication is,

Like, "well, if you don't learn how to employ trail braking, you're limited as far as your riding skills go".

Like, "you'll never be a good rider if you don't learn how to use it...blah, blah, blah...

That's how it comes across to me, what a lot of people have posted about this topic in a couple of threads now.

I have been riding for ten years, not a lot of time as far as a lot of people here but, I have never used it.

After I completed the MSF BRC in '08, I took what I learned and got better at it mostly by riding on the roads in the SC hills.

Up and down and back and forth on all of them, countless times. Never using trail braking that I can recall.

I consider myself to be an intermediate rider. At 64 y/o I don't need to go any faster if trail braking is what it takes. I have fun when I ride, and I don't feel that I need, or want to use trail braking.

In my eyes, there is ton more important to riding, than trail braking.

Intuition, good judgement, and situational awareness are far more important to having fun and making it home alive than trail braking IMO.

One other thing that sounds kinda corny but, you have to feel like you're one with your bike, much like downhill skiing, or surfing. In either sport, those boards under your feet have got to feel like they are a part of you. Same goes with your MC, IMO.

 

[budman]

Bill

We all ride different rides. Your examples for street riding are at the top of the list yet others are left off.

This is an advanced technique and need not be used to have fun. I think riding the hills and using it with your implication that someone would use trail braking if they are using those roads as a race track is short sighted, but we all have our own definitions on what is fast or crazy or slow or stupid.

I use it whether on a casual ride or a sporty one. There is nothing stupid about it. Selling it short because you don’t use it kind of sucks. Do what you do sir. Don’t shit on what others may do, including me and my 50 years of riding.

 

[T100]

Bill

We all ride different rides. Your examples for street riding are at the top of the list yet others are left off.

This is an advanced technique and need not be used to have fun. I think riding the hills and using it with your implication that someone would use trail braking if they are using those roads as a race track is short sighted, but we all have our own definitions on what is fast or crazy or slow or stupid.

I use it whether on a casual ride or a sporty one. There is nothing stupid about it. Selling it short because you don’t use it kind of sucks. Do what you do sir. Don’t shit on what others may do, including me and my 50 years of riding.

Yeah, I edited my post after I re-read it and removed the rant. I don't mean to shit on what others do in practice, but in the same token, the attitude of many on this topic seems to me presumptive, if not as I said, kind of arrogant.

 

[stangmx13]

The thing that irritates me about this topic is the way people come across talking about it. It's this arrogance thing about the trail braking.

why take it so personally?

mastering any riding skill will make u a better rider. end of story. and there are plenty of skills that we all still need to master.

 

[ontherearwheel]

Bill

We all ride different rides. Your examples for street riding are at the top of the list yet others are left off.

This is an advanced technique and need not be used to have fun. I think riding the hills and using it with your implication that someone would use trail braking if they are using those roads as a race track is short sighted, but we all have our own definitions on what is fast or crazy or slow or stupid.

I use it whether on a casual ride or a sporty one. There is nothing stupid about it. Selling it short because you don’t use it kind of sucks. Do what you do sir. Don’t shit on what others may do, including me and my 50 years of riding.

Implying that if you dont, one is not a skilled rider is kinda short sighted.

Just because you find it useful doesn’t mean it’s a required skill all should learn.

I mean you really think a Harley rider in Texas on flat, straight roads need to know anything about trail braking?

There is a air arrogance in this thread. Just reread your post......oh I’ve been doing this for 5O years.....implying you know best for all.

 

[Enchanter]

The misconception is that trail-braking requires more speed. You can use trail-braking at any speed.

T100, you are a perfect example of why trail-braking isn't required when riding. It can be a useful skill to have just in case of an error in judgment and you enter a turn faster than you should have (or wanted to) and you want a slight reduction in speed.

I agree with almost every statement in the video except the part about trail-braking in every turn (regardless of speed). I'm going to practice it on a ride to Alice's and see a) if I can actually do it on every singe turn, and b) if I change my mind about it being required.

 

[Enchanter]

There is a air arrogance in this thread. Just reread your post......oh I’ve been doing this for 5O years.....implying you know best for all.

Pot / kettle / BLACK. You just described damn near all of your posts on BARF.

 

[stangmx13]

I agree with almost every statement in the video except the part about trail-braking in every turn (regardless of speed). I'm going to practice it on a ride to Alice's and see a) if I can actually do it on every singe turn, and b) if I change my mind about it being required.

are we ignoring turns that require zero braking? ones where u wouldn't even coast or engine brake?

I absolutely trail brake for every turn that requires some braking. on the street, I would often trail brake for turns that do not require braking - but I cant say that id do it for every one. those turns where ud get by with just a little bit of coasting (engine braking), id find myself dragging the brakes out of habit.

 

[budman]

Implying that if you dont, one is not a skilled rider is kinda short sighted.
I sure do not mean to imply that.

Just because you find it useful doesn’t mean it’s a required skill all should learn.
I did not say it is a required skill

I mean you really think a Harley rider in Texas on flat, straight roads need to know anything about trail braking?

Sure. It may when he turns into a wall mart to get you a mouth diaper

There is a air arrogance in this thread. Just reread your post......oh I’ve been doing this for 5O years.....implying you know best for all.

Bill gave some years. So did I because... He implied that sport riders treating the hills at race tracks. I have been to the race track like you. I know the difference and just because I ride at a sporting pace at times it does not mean I treat such as a race track.

I know you have a weird hard on for me G. I thought we were friends.
I have learned we are not and your pissy attitude continues to roll out of your mouth. So once again.... tell me why when I share my opinion you feel the need to piss on it?

 

[budman]

BTW: I would add there is nothing in this thread that says it is required. It is a technique that can be applied or not.

Your choice.

 

[Aware]

Aware, when was the last time you attended follow-on formal training (a street focused class)?

Just last year. How about you?

I consider myself to be constantly looking for ways to improve my riding, because regardless how amy of us were taught, there's always more we can learn.

 

[FreeRyde]

I'll go against the grain (per the video) and say that using the rear brake for trail braking on the street is not all that dangerous.
Only if you understand that it will not save you if you go cooking into the corner too hot... It will allow you to tighten your line mid corner and or settle a rowdy chassis.

Thanks for the post Budman!

 

[DataDan]

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm utterly unconvinced that trailing front brake through the steering input and continuing all the way to the apex in every turn would improve my riding. I sometimes trail brake and am comfortable with it, but it's not my preferred style.

I became a Keith Code acolyte long ago (due in part to tzrider's influence back in the rec.motorcycles days). Steer once, steer quickly, and get back on the gas as soon as possible. Thus, I'm OFF the brake by the time I steer. Video Guy calls that "coasting":

Coasting is engine braking, and engine braking is like using the rear brake, which isn't so good. It negates all the bike's geometry benefits we get from using the front brake.​

This directly contradicts what Nick Ienatsch says in Sport Riding Techniques (not to mention my personal experience):

A closed throttle moves the motorcycle's weight forward onto the front tire. As that happens, the fork compresses and the bike's steering geometry tightens. encouraging the bike to steer. [p38]​

And VG's criticism of slow-look-press-roll is pure bollocks:

But there's some real problems with this technique [SLPR]. If it's a blind turn and you don't know how tight it is, how do you know how much to slow... And if you don't know how tight it is, how do you know how much to accelerate...Why would you want to accelerate if you can't see what's ahead?​

It has been too long since I last took an MSF class, but I certainly don't recall being instructed to select entry speed before I know how tight the curve is. And in Chapter 14, "Safe Cornering Techniques" of MSF's Motorcycling Excellence, they say:

Selecting an appropriate entry speed is a complex decision based on your observations as you approach the corner...

Once you've selected your turn-in point and arrived at a suitable entry speed, you need to lean the motorcycle into the corner...

Ideally, you want to use a steady speed through the middle of the turn and then gradually roll on the throttle to increase speed as you near the exit...​

Got it. Observe, approach, set entry speed, lean, steady speed, spot the exit, accelerate. BTW, that MSF book devotes a page to trail braking, explained by Freddie Spencer.

Adjusting speed in a blind turn is the subject of the technique of The Vanishing Point (called the "Limit Point" in the Brit's Roadcraft system). The VP is the point where the road disappears around a blind turn. As you approach the turn and the VP is getting closer, slow down--roll off or brake. In mid-turn, it will be at a constant distance ahead--use a little gas to maintain constant speed. Nearing the exit, the VP leaps into the distance, so you accelerate.

 

[Butch]

Brakes are for sissies.





J/K. Though I don’t use them much on the street. I’m not usually riding that spiritedly. Is that a word?

 

[Aware]

I'll go against the grain (per the video) and say that using the rear brake for trail braking on the street is not all that dangerous.
Only if you understand that it will not save you if you go cooking into the corner too hot... It will allow you to tighten your line mid corner and or settle a rowdy chassis.

Thanks for the post Budman!

Agreed. I was kind of shocked that he said it was dangerous. We already know that using the brakes at all while cranked over is a skill that requires finesse. Doesn't make sense to me to call out using the rear as dangerous.

 

[budman]

I think using the rear is even a higher level of skill

I would recommend that you don’t until you are comfortable with the front. Racers will use it to lower to rear before applying the front, but all these things are advanced techniques. That means baby steps to me.

 

[T100]

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm utterly unconvinced that trailing front brake through the steering input and continuing all the way to the apex in every turn would improve my riding.

Me too. In fact, I honestly would be afraid to start doing it.

Steer once, steer quickly, and get back on the gas as soon as possible. Thus, I'm OFF the brake by the time I steer. Video Guy calls that "coasting":

^^^This is exactly how I ride. On one of my home roads in Tucson, I know it so well, that I really never use my brakes on it, but use engine breaking almost exclusively on the approach, rather than braking, going up or down the mountain.

If anyone is unfamiliar with the late model Hypers, they are high compression L-twins that have an insane amount engine breaking in gears 1-4 at high RPM's and just by closing the throttle you can slow down like- right now.

Some people complain about how severe it is....I love it.

Coasting is engine braking, and engine braking is like using the rear brake, which isn't so good. It negates all the bike's geometry benefits we get from using the front brake.​

This directly contradicts what Nick Ienatsch says in Sport Riding Techniques (not to mention my personal experience):

A closed throttle moves the motorcycle's weight forward onto the front tire. As that happens, the fork compresses and the bike's steering geometry tightens. encouraging the bike to steer. [p38]​

And VG's criticism of slow-look-press-roll is pure bollocks:

But there's some real problems with this technique [SLPR]. If it's a blind turn and you don't know how tight it is, how do you know how much to slow... And if you don't know how tight it is, how do you know how much to accelerate...Why would you want to accelerate if you can't see what's ahead?​

Heartily agree.

Ideally, you want to use a steady speed through the middle of the turn and then gradually roll on the throttle to increase speed as you near the exit...[/i][/indent]
Got it. Observe, approach, set entry speed, lean, steady speed, spot the exit, accelerate.

Same again.

 

[Smash Allen]

I had to brake after I had leaned over today and that guys voice popped into my head and I was real easy on the brakes and bled enough speed to almost stay on track

Turn 8 is pretty fast and normally I downshift and engine brake to apex, this was at the end of the day when I was tired and lazy and wasn’t firm enough with my shift and it went into neutral

https://youtu.be/LmNrb2Mx764

 

[budman]

I just want to say right now.

Some people are not gigging with trail braking.
That is fine. Trail braking will enhance your skill set if you learn it. My opinion remains: you should.

 

[Enchanter]

Just last year. How about you?

I consider myself to be constantly looking for ways to improve my riding, because regardless how amy of us were taught, there's always more we can learn.

Cool. You’re one of the rare (good) ones. What class did you take?

I take a class as a student each a year as well, but it’s a bit different for me. I teach teach 2-4 beginner classes a month, then 2-4 follow-on classes a year. So, my street based training as a student, is minimal. I do receive coaching from the instructors I teach with though similar, it’s different.

I am constantly focused on riding correctly (as taught) because it makes me a better instructor and a better rider. Nothing worse than talking the talk and not walking the walk.

I do a few car trackdays a year, and most of that does transfer over.