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Track day crash etiquette

R

Rick Piras

New member
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Location
San Jose
Moto(s)
Honda VFR , Honda 600 F4I track/street bike
I was crashed into last week at a K@TT track day at Infineon in turn 11 by a guy that rear ended me. We both went down as a result, the other guy worse than me. The session got red-flagged, EMT’s who were very closely stationed came out and checked us both out (we ended up about 30 yards apart) and we both were able to get up and ride the bikes back to the pits. My first priority, after making sure I was OK, was to get the bike into running shape by the next session, so I focused on getting my controls straightened out and figuring out what to do about my mangled foot peg. I ended up, with Dave Moss’ help, to brake off the mangled end, and just rode a shortened peg the rest of the day. After that was out of the way, I go looking for the guy that crashed me, mostly to ask WTF was THAT about, and find out the guy left! I can’t imagine being that much of a jerk to someone else. Is it unreasonable to expect that if you crashed someone else out that at the very least an apology would be in order?
A little background: I normally ride the B group, but since I was new to Infineon, and on a new (to me) bike, I figured I’d ride in the C group. Our first session was strictly sighting laps. About my second lap of the first real session, I come though the chicane at turn 9 and notice that the guy that would eventually punt my rear had obviously gone off the track and was getting back on as I came by. Going through turn 10 I was on the wheel of two guys in front of me. There was no point in trying to pass on that section of the track, so I was just being patient. I braked and downshifted for 11, and just starting to lean the bike when I got smacked from the back.
From here on everything I heard is second hand, but I was told that the it was the other guys first track day, and that “he was pretty shaken up”, and that he got help loading up his brand new Kawasaki z1000, and was going to drive himself to a hospital, somewhere near Sacramento. My guess is that he was already rattled a bit after going off at turn 9, maybe tried to make up some time going through 10 and overcooked it going into 11. I understand that he was probably just a bad rider, but I’m still baffled that someone would crash someone else out and just leave. I would certainly apologize, and most likely offer some monetary compensation, I ended up with most of my plastics on one side trashed, both turn signals, and the left peg gone. Personally, I think the guy is a douchebag.
 
Kinda depends on the nature of the other riders injuries... but generally speaking, I think leaving like that is bad form.
 
You said he loaded up his bike and took himself to the hospital. Maybe that's why he left? It kind of sucks but a track is a track and shit happens.
 
This sucks Bro. I kinda wondered the same thing. I agree that it is bad form for the person to just leave by not apologizing at a minimum.

In july, some jackass spilled oil at t-hill and took me and another guy out. My bike was totaled and i had a fractured ankle. Never got an apology from the guy. Now that i think back on it, i should of found his ass and made him apologize! In the moment, i was pissed, shocked and hurting. I didn't think i should have to go hunting for this guy but thought he might possibly approach me later on and apologized. Never happened! Chalked it up as lesson learned but if i go down because of someone else's stupidity again, it will not be pretty.

Ren


Rick Piras said:
I was crashed into last week at a K@TT track day at Infineon in turn 11 by a guy that rear ended me. We both went down as a result, the other guy worse than me. The session got red-flagged, EMT’s who were very closely stationed came out and checked us both out (we ended up about 30 yards apart) and we both were able to get up and ride the bikes back to the pits. My first priority, after making sure I was OK, was to get the bike into running shape by the next session, so I focused on getting my controls straightened out and figuring out what to do about my mangled foot peg. I ended up, with Dave Moss’ help, to brake off the mangled end, and just rode a shortened peg the rest of the day. After that was out of the way, I go looking for the guy that crashed me, mostly to ask WTF was THAT about, and find out the guy left! I can’t imagine being that much of a jerk to someone else. Is it unreasonable to expect that if you crashed someone else out that at the very least an apology would be in order?
A little background: I normally ride the B group, but since I was new to Infineon, and on a new (to me) bike, I figured I’d ride in the C group. Our first session was strictly sighting laps. About my second lap of the first real session, I come though the chicane at turn 9 and notice that the guy that would eventually punt my rear had obviously gone off the track and was getting back on as I came by. Going through turn 10 I was on the wheel of two guys in front of me. There was no point in trying to pass on that section of the track, so I was just being patient. I braked and downshifted for 11, and just starting to lean the bike when I got smacked from the back.
From here on everything I heard is second hand, but I was told that the it was the other guys first track day, and that “he was pretty shaken up”, and that he got help loading up his brand new Kawasaki z1000, and was going to drive himself to a hospital, somewhere near Sacramento. My guess is that he was already rattled a bit after going off at turn 9, maybe tried to make up some time going through 10 and overcooked it going into 11. I understand that he was probably just a bad rider, but I’m still baffled that someone would crash someone else out and just leave. I would certainly apologize, and most likely offer some monetary compensation, I ended up with most of my plastics on one side trashed, both turn signals, and the left peg gone. Personally, I think the guy is a douchebag.
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I would have said "sorry" if I could find ya, but if I had a medical issue I would have left. I certainly wouldn't have offered up any money. WTF?

I don't think you're at all being unreasonable in asking for an apology or a "hey are you ok? shit man I'm sorry," but the money comment is IMO, out of place. It's a track day, don't bring it out there unless you're willing to lose it.
 
I should've been clearer on the $$ issue. When I go on the track, I expect that if something happens to the bike, it's my issue. If two guys are too close to each other and something happens and they bump and go down it wouldn't be an issue. But if its the result of my bad riding and I hit another rider that's holding a smooth line, I would offer. I might hope that he turns down my offer, and I'm sure that if the other guy HAD offered, I would've turned it down
 
I wouldn't sweat it as there are some missing details that aren't known, such as his health. If it still bugs you later, and you see him, go on up and start a conversation about it.

Personally I put a hand up, and will apologize later, if I make a rough move on somebody so I find it bad form to leave, but he may have had a concussion etc.
 
Rick Piras said:
When I go on the track, I expect that if something happens to the bike, it's my issue. If two guys are too close to each other and something happens and they bump and go down it wouldn't be an issue. But if its the result of my bad riding and I hit another rider that's holding a smooth line, I would offer.
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Well said. I agree with you there. :thumbup
 
I was right behind you guys. Since i missed the first session, i went out with C group to do some warmup laps. It was "totally" the fault of the Kawasaki guy. He did not try to pass anyone but he got intimidated with the traffic and how near bikes could be to each other during a turn. He tried to save it, but hit on his front brake hard (and could have downshifted at the same time).

He locked his rear wheel in the process and kept dragging himself with the front brake grabbed and rear ended you. The guy was flat on the ground for a well over 2-3 minutes. I was afraid he went into a concussion and stood by the side for couple of minutes if he needed help, by that time EMT arrived.

As you said, at least an apology is mind soothing, but monetary compensation is already too much for the person who trashed himself and his almost new bike. But, nevertheless, we understand your frustration.
 
This isn't the first time that this type of thing has been posted, and there are certainly people out there who feel that if one took a major part in an accident then s/he should pony up some clams to cover the other rider in addition to an apology. I'm not one of those people. I ride as if I would have to pay someone for their bike and/or injuries, but I wouldn't offer if I actually was responsible for a crash.

It sets a bad precedent for the sport. To what extent is this guy supposed to pay for you? What if you're not an honest guy and you keep needling him for more and more money? I know a friend who was part of maybe an eight-bike pile up because some guy's motor blew and washed the entire track in oil. Now, I feel horrible for my friend, but I can't honestly expect the other guy to cough up the cabbage for all the damage he caused.

Trackday providers tell you that we all ride at our own risk, and that verbiage is meant to protect them from claims. I personally feel that is meant to be taken wholesale and extends to you and everyone riding with you. If you bin it, for whatever reason, it's your deal. Period.

Yes, it was poor etiquette for him to bail without saying something to you, but he was going to the hospital for chrissakes... and on top of that you want him to offer you money just so you can turn it down? I hate to say it, but I feel that you're the one that's showing some very poor form here.

I know you're probably pretty hot under the collar right now, and no one blames you, but I'd just call this one bad luck and forget about it. Hopefully you have a better run next time.
 
a while back, when i was living in LA, a guy i knew got taken down by some hotshot in c group. the offending rider tried to stuff him up the inside into a tight hairpin and ended up t-boning him.

the victim rider left with a handful of broken bones, while the jackass left with a slap on the wrist.

later, it was discovered that a rider behind the crash had his gopro rolling! there was indisputable evidence that the offender was way out of control and over his head. he was soon identified and contacted, but after much public arguing online (and petitions for $compensation), refused to offer more than a "sorry", despite being caught on film blatantly t-boning some poor guy.

i guess the lesson everyone took home was that, like mentioned above, be prepared to lose whatever leaves pit lane. doesnt matter how or why. money is naturally the first thing to come to mind, but its probably best left to words. its a hard pill to swallow, i feel for you. hope all goes well!
 
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This is why on the next track day I'm hitting up B group instead of C group again.

I feel like C group is wayyyyy unpredictable and people on big bad liter bikes just look back, see you on their tail in the corners and just wind it up on the straights just to not let you pass.
 
Ailiaw said:
This is why on the next track day I'm hitting up B group instead of C group again.

I feel like C group is wayyyyy unpredictable and people on big bad liter bikes just look back, see you on their tail in the corners and just wind it up on the straights just to not let you pass.
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lol... the irony of that statement... :laughing
 
Obvisiously, the guy was injured and needed medical care. I have gotten hurt at the races before and after an injury, my main focus is getting the hell out of there and seek medical care if needed or at least return home on my own recognizance. After an accident, you are still in shock. You don't feel the pain and the swelling is minimal. But that is just momentarily. The pain increases and so does the swelling to the point, depending on the injury, where you can no longer care for yourself. Then you find yourself 100 miles from home and by yourself.

Obviously he made a mistake in judgement in turn 11. Give him the benefit of the doubt that he IS sorry for what happened, but needed to take care of his own medical care first. We all assume that this risk exists when we get on the track. We don't all assume that we are gonna get an apology if someone hits us.

Just saw your profile too. What year is your VFR? What kind of track bike are you looking for?
 
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Ailiaw said:
This is why on the next track day I'm hitting up B group instead of C group again.

I feel like C group is wayyyyy unpredictable and people on big bad liter bikes just look back, see you on their tail in the corners and just wind it up on the straights just to not let you pass.[/Q

:laughing:rofl That ish is hella funny!!!! Wait til u see what b-group is like. The way I see it is b-group= c group and b-group + add a dash of EGO!!!!!!
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not to go tooo off subject but is it possible that you "parked it" as mr hell on wheels was bearing down on you? The reason I ask is becuase if you think C group is insane what in the heck you think B group is going to be like. YOu have C group paced people and borderline A groupers - that is a wide range of speed.

Just saying... :)
 
Ailiaw said:
This is why on the next track day I'm hitting up B group instead of C group again.

I feel like C group is wayyyyy unpredictable and people on big bad liter bikes just look back, see you on their tail in the corners and just wind it up on the straights just to not let you pass.
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You shouldn't be on the ass of anyone in C group, regardless what they're riding.

C group is for new people, or people who are wanting to ride in a non-competitive environment. If you don't fit into either of these categories, then you are the one who is in the wrong group.

C group, while "unpredictable" in the lines people run, is actually quite predictable. Give everyone in C group a huge cushion and expect that they'll take an off line. Do anything different, and you become one of the "unpredictable C-groupers" that people love to hate.

Just my 0.02.
 
Or, wait until you are in A group riding at a race pace and the guy who doesn't want a B group sticker on his bike so rides in A, parks in corners and uses his HP to drag race you to the next corner. Keigwin's cut-off is 2:02 for Sear's. If you ride that pace, it will be scary for you and the guy running 1:42s or so. Just 'cause you can doesn't mean you should, IMO.

I agree with Antarius. B- or C group is for people who don't want to ride with worries of getting taken out by aggressive riding.
Having said all of this, if I take out a guy or guys like a bunch of bowling pins, I would like to think I would at least want to say sorry regardless of my physical situation. (LifeFlight or Ambo the exception of course.)
I also think that if you are on the track you have to accept that shit will happen.

I look at it like this: If someone plows me on the track, I get up and walk away pissed. Maybe.
If I get plowed on the road, I may not get up. Ever.
The safety you get on the track comes with the chance of crashes, just like the road. Hopefully with less consequences.

Lance and Linda run a very safe and controlled track day. If the instructors saw the type of riding you described, the guy would have been meatballed eventually. It was just a matter of time. Unfortunately, he got you first.
Best wishes to all involved. Track time is a hoot and things like this put a little black eye on it.
 
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