Trail Braking

[balistic]

newbie here to trail breaking

are there any gotcha's to breaking in the turn with linked breaks?

I remember a series of pictures from Superbike magazine of a tester loosing a linked brake Honda because it locked the rear when he was on the front brake hard, So YES.
Will

 

[Trackho]

I remember a series of pictures from Superbike magazine of a tester loosing a linked brake Honda because it locked the rear when he was on the front brake hard, So YES.
Will

My Blackbird (XX) has linked brakes---in a track environment, the rear will lock up as you turn the bike in on the brakes, and unload the rear---not an ideal combo

 

[afmotorsports]

balistic wrote: "The reason I asked it that way is with trail braking you have already lessened the arc of the turn and to square it off would seem to be the logical next step."

Will, aren't you one of the guys that works for Keith's school? That phrase alone is practically out of "the secret manual" from the school and tells me you drank the Kool-Aid already. In the recent past, Mr. Code has back-peddled from "trailbraking is stupid" statements, especially as top level roadracers are obviously applying that skill with great success. I do believe Keith's school has value as do others that also teach trailbraking techniques. I always had a difficult time understanding how you take a decreasing radius turn by getting all your braking done while straight up and down, then "quickly flick it in" and "get on the gas." I don't think there's an absolute "best technique" for every situation and trailbraking is just another arrow in my quiver. Keith is still so transparent in his "ponderings" of the risk/reward analysis of trailbraking and I frankly don't care for that type of condescending tone.

I don't "back it in" either, but it's clearly a skill I unfortunately don't posess rather than a "bad technique" - there's more than a few top level pro riders that use it throughout the race, not just to show off on the cool-off lap.

 

[balistic]

balistic wrote: "The reason I asked it that way is with trail braking you have already lessened the arc of the turn and to square it off would seem to be the logical next step."

Will, aren't you one of the guys that works for Keith's school? That phrase alone is practically out of "the secret manual" from the school and tells me you drank the Kool-Aid already. In the recent past, Mr. Code has back-peddled from "trailbraking is stupid" statements, especially as top level roadracers are obviously applying that skill with great success. I do believe Keith's school has value as do others that also teach trailbraking techniques. I always had a difficult time understanding how you take a decreasing radius turn by getting all your braking done while straight up and down, then "quickly flick it in" and "get on the gas." I don't think there's an absolute "best technique" for every situation and trailbraking is just another arrow in my quiver. Keith is still so transparent in his "ponderings" of the risk/reward analysis of trailbraking and I frankly don't care for that type of condescending tone.

I don't "back it in" either, but it's clearly a skill I unfortunately don't posess rather than a "bad technique" - there's more than a few top level pro riders that use it throughout the race, not just to show off on the cool-off lap.

Im not quite sure if your slamming me on this or not. But you are correct that I have been trained by Keith and I apply brake, turn, gas as the mainstay technique I use. I can use the brake while leaned over or even when turning but for me it usually means I have made a mistake and that is either a reaction solution or im just trying to slow down a little.

I had an interesting dice with Chris Siglin at the December WSMC 650 superbike race. It would appear that he uses trailbraking into one and three and I wasn't interested in getting into a braking battle with him. however this bravado would cost him his drive and we had six laps of passing each other two or three times a lap. We have totally different styles of riding and yet the same lap times. This type of thing leaves me with the questions, What's the big deal? Is one way better?

I can only speak for myself but I can't ride Trailbraking and drag the clutch into the corners. Does it mean Im slow, Hell no! Every rider will have problems to solve when riding and not everyone will come to the same conclusions. If we did riding would not be evolving, it would be stagnant and totally mapped out.
Will

 

[afmotorsports]

I definitely wouldn't call it a "slam", but you are by no means an unbiased party/rider on this topic - that's what I meant by "you drank the Kool-Aid." Keith is a very valuable information and training source for all roadracers - I've read all his books cover to cover.

HOWEVER, he has condemned trailbraking for as long as I can remember and I've always been critical of my riding because there were always some corners where I trailbraked and he had me convinced that I was screwing up. I have come to believe that such an absolute condemnation of this skill (trailbraking) is false and there is a time and a place where that's a valuable skill - applying or staying on the brakes while bending it into a corner is often the right way to turn. How exactly would you come off the banking at Daytona into the infield section without trailbraking? Many other decreasing radius turns can benefit from having this skill and there are many block passes that I can only stick by trailbraking. Neither trailbraking or backing it in is "bravado", so there may come a time when you will suffer because you don't have and refuse to acquire those arrows in your quiver. Believe me, I'm not bashing you because I myself can't seem to get "backing it in" through my thick skull and I know that hurt me in T2 at Laguna when my close competitors squared off the corner and kicked my butt. I've trained on XR100s and worked on this skill, but I still can't do it right.

I don't live in a black and white world, so I'm aware there are many shades of grey. The Freddie Spencer school has given trailbraking legitimacy and Nicky Hayden (among many) has given "backing it in" legitimacy, so now Keith and other schools are doing a very delicate "dance" around the issue - no longer publicly condemning it, but rather "pondering" the pro's and con's, just as you've done on this thread. This "pondering" is quite transparent, at least to me. However, I'm hearing enough riders come back from the "non-trailbraking" schools of thought that hear a much more direct message in person from instructors and I think that's weak - if you're gonna call it "stupid" in the classroom, be a man and say it in public, don't just dance around it with a pros and cons "analysis." Then you can face the backlash of the public as they wonder why MotoGP onboard cameras show top level riders traibraking and backing it in... I don't know that either trailbraking or backing it in are "new" skills, but rather they've been surfaced as legitimate arrows in a rider's quiver instead of squidly bad habits.

You state that you wouldn't want riding to stop evolving, remaining stagnant and "totally mapped out", so just like "hanging off" and "dragging knees" came into the picture decades ago, maybe it's time to accept there are other legitimate skills and Twist of the Wrist will not be the bible of roadracing for all eternity. There was a time when the value of hanging off and dragging knees was questioned...

 

[Alexey]

Maybe I'm a little late on the trigger with this discussion, but just to bring up another perspective, Eric Bostrom mentioned in a column in Roadracing World that his backing in was an unwanted byproduct of trailbraking and extreme weight transfer. The rear would get light as the turn was already initiated and so it would try to come around on him. They've been working on solving it, but couldn't find a perfect solution. MotoGP I suspect is similar. Remember Rossi late last season when he was having clutch problems and the bike kept getting too sideways messing up his corner entry? Honda were content with experimenting then because they had the season in the bag, so we got to see a bit of their R&D.

 

[balistic]

OK Alex, so let me clear a couple of things up for you. I have never condemned trailbraking period. I do know what it is and when I can use it. You are attacking me for your disagreement with Keith that has nothing to do with the question I asked. I don't sugar coat my words or Vail what I am trying to say.
The question was and is are trailbraking and backing it in connected skills? It seems to me that most of the guys that are backing it in are trailbraking also.
I don't know why that question has brought on this attack by you but it seems like a simple enough thing to answer.
"Neither trailbraking or backing it in is "bravado"". The bravado im referring to how deep Chris was willing to brake. I am not often out braked and he was willing to go as deep as it took. This is what I call "Bravado" and I knew if I forced the issue we would both be in too deep, so I resigned myself to the impending pass. But make no mistake this was a classic example of fast in slow out, and what I practice is slow in fast out.

I spoke in very plain English and you chopped it up into quotes to suit your context. I have no fear of speaking what I think in public. The only problem is someone doing what you are doing and tying to slag me with baggage you have that is for someone else.

You have made the assertion I am biased, what example of this are you referring to? Or am I guilty by association? Do you have a beef with me over something else? If so PM me.
Will Eikenberry WSMC #363 CCS #63

 

[balistic]

Maybe I'm a little late on the trigger with this discussion, but just to bring up another perspective, Eric Bostrom mentioned in a column in Roadracing World that his backing in was an unwanted byproduct of trailbraking and extreme weight transfer. The rear would get light as the turn was already initiated and so it would try to come around on him. They've been working on solving it, but couldn't find a perfect solution. MotoGP I suspect is similar. Remember Rossi late last season when he was having clutch problems and the bike kept getting too sideways messing up his corner entry? Honda were content with experimenting then because they had the season in the bag, so we got to see a bit of their R&D.

And don't forget Yates on motoworld this year with the same point of view. It was very popular with Hayden's and then others for a couple of years, but now seems to be waning with the pro's.
I remember an interview with Doohan when he explained the thumb brake was to control the rear wheel spin. And earlier with Spencer talking about using the rear brake to start the rear wheel sliding out of track and then getting on the throttle to keep it sliding and (steer) the bike.
Will

 

[afmotorsports]

Will, read my post again - it is NOT an attack on you. Ask anyone, I would be very direct if I thought you were full of crap. If you were indeed one of the instructors that stated during a class that trailbraking is stupid, then shame on you... but I don't know that you ever did that and I did not direct any such accusation towards you. There is a thread on Motorush where an east coast racer states that an instructor from another school (not Code) basically stated that trailbraking is a streetrider bad habit.

Your association with the school disqualifies you as an unbiased party. If I was an instructor for Freddie's school, I would be in the same position. That by no means takes away from your racing accomplishments or your ability/expertise as a rider, but I am suggesting that Keith is not the final word on roadracing skills and your defensive posture makes me wonder if you would be open to ideas from another source. Chris employs techniques that make both of us uncomfortable - we duked it out last year when I was riding a 600 in AFM - but frankly that's because he has them in his bag of tricks and we don't. I can accept that. We've both beat him at one time or another and he's beat both of us as well. No shame in that - he's a good rider. I don't think "bravado" is the right term for his riding, but it may not suit our style - I sure wouldn't do some of the stuff he does, but I can't say it's really an option for me because I really don't have the skills to pull it off.

To answer your question even more direct: I do believe trailbraking and backing it in are not necessarily interdependant, although my feeling is that backing it in is more likely to be tied in to trailbraking (vs. the other way around). More importantly, I think these are both skills that have only recently become "legitimate" and a lot of the new debates online are triggered by schools with different methodologies. To say NEVER trailbrake is just as wrong as saying ALWAYS trailbrake. I personally believe that the schools and instructors that are knocking trailbraking as a valuable skill are only setting themselves up for riducule in the future.

Cheers!

 

[JeffKoch]

I had an interesting dice with Chris Siglin at the December WSMC 650 superbike race. It would appear that he uses trailbraking into one and three and I wasn't interested in getting into a braking battle with him. however this bravado would cost him his drive and we had six laps of passing each other two or three times a lap...

Will, interesting, I don't have much experience at Willow, but I personally wouldn't think T1 would be a trailbraking corner since it's banked and a good exit is important for a good entry into T2 - unless of course you're trying to hold off a pass, or pass someone. I'm not sure about T3, but it's also banked and the exit is uphill. Of course this assumes that trailbraking automatically leads to a slower exit drive, which seems to be true for me and maybe even for most people, but perhaps not for the fastest guys (I have no idea).

Were you passing Chris entering T2 and T4, or elsewhere? Do most folks at Willow brake early and drive through T1 and T3?

When I think of trailbraking corners, I think of turns like T3 at Thill, which is long and has no exit to speak of, so max entry speed doesn't really have a penalty (well, apart from tucking the front and crashing). Or the entry to T7 at Sears, up to the turning point for the exit into T8.

On the backing-it-in question, just passing along info I heard from Kevin Schwantz, which is that he shifted to rear-wheel steering towards the end of the race, when the front tire was off and he couldn't depend on it to stick anymore. I think that's when you see guys like Rossi sliding around the most too, towards the end of the race.

 

[balistic]

.

Your association with the school disqualifies you as an unbiased party. If I was an instructor for Freddie's school, I would be in the same position. That by no means takes away from your racing accomplishments or your ability/expertise as a rider, but I am suggesting that Keith is not the final word on roadracing skills and your defensive posture makes me wonder if you would be open to ideas from another source. Chris employs techniques that make both of us uncomfortable - we duked it out last year when I was riding a 600 in AFM - but frankly that's because he has them in his bag of tricks and we don't. I can accept that. We've both beat him at one time or another and he's beat both of us as well. No shame in that - he's a good rider. I don't think "bravado" is the right term for his riding, but it may not suit our style - I sure wouldn't do some of the stuff he does, but I can't say it's really an option for me because I really don't have the skills to pull it off.

Cheers!

If you would seek to disqualify the schooled who would be left to discuss such topics with? I don't think you could find a biased post of mine about this. I am asking questions to my own end and the defensiveness you see is in response to your comments about me and putting me in some lap dog position with Keith. I was trained by him and know what we teach. I do agree with the idea of trail braking but the application is where I diverge.
Just as an example of why I might be defensive.
. "Chris employs techniques that make both of us uncomfortable"
I never said anything negative about Chris's riding. I find him totally consistent in his technique and therefore predictable. That is the highest praise other than outright speed I could give a fellow competitor. I would race wheel to wheel with him anytime and I won’t say that about many.
Just as a last point, I have played with backing it in and trail braking and talked with Keith about both. I have never heard the outright condemnation you claim to have and our instructors do talk about it and have been. By the way im the mechanic at the school and been so since I started in 87 with a brief absence to work as an instructor from 95 to 97 and back as the mechanic since 2000. I got my first job in the summer of 77 as lot boy. I mention this to demonstrate I know what the bike is inside and out, and this understanding with the training I have gotten from Keith has forged me as the rider I am.
Will

 

[balistic]

Will, interesting, I don't have much experience at Willow, but I personally wouldn't think T1 would be a trailbraking corner since it's banked and a good exit is important for a good entry into T2 - unless of course you're trying to hold off a pass, or pass someone. I'm not sure about T3, but it's also banked and the exit is uphill. Of course this assumes that trailbraking automatically leads to a slower exit drive, which seems to be true for me and maybe even for most people, but perhaps not for the fastest guys (I have no idea).

Were you passing Chris entering T2 and T4, or elsewhere? Do most folks at Willow brake early and drive through T1 and T3?

Lets start with the fact that Willow is an anomily and at Willow I am an anomily. I am really the only fast guy that I know of that will late turn one. there is a big bump on the outside right where you want to turn and I have figured out how to deal with it. Turn three is ideal for trailing because you literaly run into the banking like a wall so loosing the front is much easier to control with traction increasing.
I could pass Chris comming out of one, and get along side comming out of three. But what mad the race for me was that I could get a drive on him comming out of nine and draft pass on the straight. If not for that pass Im not sure I could have hung with him.

When I think of trailbraking corners, I think of turns like T3 at Thill, which is long and has no exit to speak of, so max entry speed doesn't really have a penalty (well, apart from tucking the front and crashing). Or the entry to T7 at Sears, up to the turning point for the exit into T8.
[/B]

The question I like to ask about trail braking is: Can you go into a turn fast enough to push the front? If so how much traction is left for braking? Then if you have traction left to brake aren't you already going too slow?
with this in mind I will look for the point (speed)when the front will plow in a paticular turn and then as I add speed I pull the turn point back and plow the front into the turn. This was the solution that I applied to turn three at TH. [/B][/QUOTE]

On the backing-it-in question, just passing along info I heard from Kevin Schwantz, which is that he shifted to rear-wheel steering towards the end of the race, when the front tire was off and he couldn't depend on it to stick anymore. I think that's when you see guys like Rossi sliding around the most too, towards the end of the race. [/B]

It's funny you said this, I was just talking about the first guy to use backing it in we came up with Schwantz. I can still remember him at Phillip Island sliding down hill into a right.
Will

 

[JeffKoch]

...Turn three is ideal for trailing because you literaly run into the banking like a wall so loosing the front is much easier to control with traction increasing.

Interesting, I remember reading a story in one of the magazines a couple years ago about Anthony Gobert lapping Willow compared with one of the editors (I think it was Boehm at Motorcyclist). I believe Gobert was pushing the front routinely going into T3, but I don't remember if he was on the brakes or not. That's a wildly fast track, and I'd have to go back a half-dozen more times before I felt comfortable with the speeds. Fun, though.

The question I like to ask about trail braking is: Can you go into a turn fast enough to push the front? If so how much traction is left for braking? Then if you have traction left to brake aren't you already going too slow?
with this in mind I will look for the point (speed)when the front will plow in a paticular turn and then as I add speed I pull the turn point back and plow the front into the turn. This was the solution that I applied to turn three at TH.

That's a good question, and the way I'd look at it is, you're kinda doing the same thing. If you're pushing the front entering a turn, you're not turning as much as you would be without the push, and you're scrubbing off speed with the front tire. If you were on the brakes, you would be scrubbing off speed with the brakes, and you wouldn't be able to turn as much due to the extra force on the tire - but you might have an easier time adjusting your speed on the way in to the point where you're at max cornering speed (which would be just before pushing, where rubber/pavement traction is highest), if that's what you want to do. The downside might be the risk of an instant crash if you try to brake and turn too much at the same time, whereas if you're already pushing on the gas you'll probably just keep merrily plowing along.

 

[balistic]

Now were getting close on this. It really is the same thing if a trail braker is skilled enough to get to the edge of traction. The difference is what im talking about is at full lean. The bike doesn't have the same arc as it would if the tire were hooked up, and therefore may be traveling the same path as the trail braker but the difference is how many things the rider has to manage. In the system I use the bike is fully turned so when you want the front to stop plowing you roll the gas on and it hooks up. your already turned and the lean is set so off you go into the turn.
With trailing your not turning as fast and have the bars loaded for a much longer time. You have to monitor the front brake and make sure not to lock it. You will need to finish the turning at some point too.
Neither way it 100% applicable to every turn, some one way some the other. I know that just throwing it in and plowing the front can be very intimidating to learn, but once you have it it's just another way to solve a problem entering a turn.
The questions in the last post are the thing i ask myself when im working out a plan on a particular corner. There are corners I trail brake, but it's fewer than most.
Will

 

[afmotorsports]

Will writes: "There are corners I trail brake, but it's fewer than most."

Alright Will, one last question then: if you indeed trailbrake into a few corners (even one), then clearly there has to be some benefit under certain circumstances to chose trailbraking over quick-turn. Since you personally use it, do you believe it should be a part of the curriculum, at least for the more advanced schools? When do you anticipate that this skill/technique will be taught and practiced in the Superbike School?

Happy New Year!

 

[balistic]

We are way off the subject here but to answer your question, Maybe. Keith has built the school based on what can be successfully taught to anyone time after time. C.S.S. is totally results based, 24 years has produced the gradient we have now. Knowing what to teach so the rider can progress is the whole idea. We have three levels with five skills in each, each building on the last. In level four the rider is surveyed and the day's activities formed from what he feels he needs to improve in.
We do Code R.A.C.E. (race and competition experience) where we go over passing in every way.
Like I have said before you are being too critical of Keith based on at best old information and at worst misinformation.

Back to the subject. The guys that drag the clutch and back it in are more likely to trail brake, than the guy's who trail brake to back it in??? If this is correct are the back it guys coming from dirt track or moto where rear wheel steering is more common?
Will

 

[CTS488]

Well here it is, I know my style of riding that i just seemed to have picked up this past year puts a few of my competitors on edge! I know this. I've self taught myself that skill and like Alex mentioned earilier it just an extra skill i can use incase i get put in situation where i need to use it. I know i over used it when i first started learning how to do it and just in the past 2 or 3 months i finally figured the correct way of late braking and steering with the rear end. I'm not a flat tracker, motorcrosser, or anything to do with a motorcycle riding backround. I simply started to try something new that I saw a few top name riders doing with their bikes. I played with the trail braking and rear brake to "back it in" I've have gotten carryed away using this style but i finally found out how to control it and use it when its only needed, not for thrills. It has lost me races(when i first learned it and played with it) and won me races.

The way Will rides is very different than most riders. I've noticed that about most California superbike school instructors/students use a lot of lean angle and very different race lines. They're not wrong in the way they ride, its just a style i believe keith teaches and seems to work for them. Stoney Landers for instance is a pretty big name down at willow and riders a big 1000. He riders very similar to will and is also a Cal. Superbike school instructor. I've had my battles with him on my 750 and I know where his weakness is on the track and visa versa, Brien Whitlock is another name that comes to mind when I think of the way they ride and that "style" . All these guys ride virtually idenically and have been taught by keith. They're all fast guys and i'm sure have won races and lost races because of things that they we're taught.

Will and I had some very good dices last month and he mention the whole me late braking into 1 and 3. the style i was riding that weekend was way different than my normal way i ride at willow. A lot of times if a suspension setup isn't exactly what you desired certain things will cause the bike to react differently and you need to be able to adapt to these situations. I had problems with the rear end wanted to come around hard on the brakes which makes it seem that i was "backing it in" but i simply was having a suspension issues(among other things i won't mention) and adjusted to it accordingly and made the best of the situation. Will rode his ass off that weekend and went faster than he had ever gone before at willow, so i'm not trying to cut him short cause will is an awsome guy and very hard to get around.

So trail braking......... a good thing/ bad thing......... i say do what feels comfortable for you and helps you go faster. All these schools will teach you different things and styles and what not to do versus what they feel is the right way. I've never taken any schools, EVER!! I do what feels will help me win a race, i've learned many different styles and try to use to right one in the right situations, i still have a lot to learn!

So, do i trail brake? Only when i need to!

My .02,

Chris Siglin

 

[balistic]

Well said Chris. I didn't want to sound like I was flaming you like the other guy. As far as having problems and not wanting to take anything away for me, you should say we were dicing within a half second of the fastest 600 lap you or Jason had done. A situation I was able to rectify in the F-1 race.

I was racing the ZX9R last year and the 636 is a huge adjustment for me. I have had to change the way I ride. I creep up on the pace, I really like to paint but not re-paint my bike.

I really like racing with you and hope to be up to the challenge again. It is the difference in our styles that make it fun for me. Not to mention that if I am riding with you it means I am near the front too.
Will

 

[afmotorsports]

Ehhh... Will.... I'm still here, dude!

"I didn't want to sound like I was flaming you like the other guy."

WTF is that all about?? Chris is one of my Michelin sponsored riders, so what makes you think I'm "flaming" him?!! If anything, I believe your comments of "bravado" and "classic example of fast in slow out" could be perceived as condescending, when the reality is that Chris pretty much OWNS most club racers on the brakes (myself included).

Chris wrote: "Well here it is, I know my style of riding that i just seemed to have picked up this past year puts a few of my competitors on edge! I know this. I've self taught myself that skill and like Alex mentioned earilier it just an extra skill i can use incase i get put in situation where i need to use it. I know i over used it when i first started learning how to do it and just in the past 2 or 3 months i finally figured the correct way of late braking and steering with the rear end. "

I rode a 600 in 2002 in the same classes as Chris and except for the beginning of the season, he kicked my ass. I saw his bike move around a lot. He backed it into corners waaaay sideways - there were lots of spectators in T14 at Thunderhill just to watch him. If he would've been crashing a lot, I could've maybe argued that he was out of control. But he didn't! He just has skills that I don't. Period. Mo' skills is mo' better! Today he is definitely a better rider than me. Stating that I'm not comfortable doing some of the things he does is definitely not a slam - it just means I'd end up on my head if I tried them during a race. Chances are anybody who didn't acquire and practice those skills like Chris would be in the same boat.

Happy New Year!

 

[GPgofast]

My race trailer doesn't have brakes so I don't. Did I miss something in the previous 4 pages???GP