Troubleshooting a 96 DR650

[Gibsontaylor]

Fellow thumpers,

So just a little while ago, Wolf sold his 03DR650 and noticed a small problem with the bike while it was starting...

I have a similar issue with my 96DR650, here is his for sale thread:

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283538

Some advice from Wolf:

While it was at the dealer, they also tried swapping in a new ignition box to see if that was the problem, but it didn't make any difference, so you can cross that off your list too.

Does your DR use a vacuum line from the carb to the tank to draw in fuel, like my 03 does? I keep figuring it's something carb related, and for a while considered swapping in a standard (non-vacuum) carb instead. The one it came with (and still has) is a Mikuni BST40, which doesn't seem to be a very common unit. Seems the only other engines that come with them are a couple models of snowmobile.

One thing I've found to work in getting the bike to restart after dying, is to open the fuel bowl drain screw, and drain out all the fuel. The bike will then restart, making me think that maybe the carb is flooding, then after sitting for a while, the excess fuel evaporates, allowing it to start again.

-Patrick

After that, I received a little more advice, however I explored them and still the same issue...

Here is that quote from the new owner:

Hey there,

I bought Wolf's bike. Hopefully now I can sell my XR650R.

Anyway... I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the vacuum petcock. The petcock has three positions if I remember. on prime and reserve. I'm pretty sure that the prime position bypasses the vacuum operation of the petcock. I'm going to fiddle with it today and see what I can figure out. I'll let you know what I find.

Keith H.

My response:

So in lemans terms, the selector switch just below the gas tank that regulates on, reserve, and off right? I played with that, my jet needle, and my idle settings and it still ran for 30 mins and quit on me, mid freeway no less (fun day, I'll tell you all about it later when I want to depress myself =P). There was a hose off the top of the carb that was plugged by a screw, should I mess with that? It looked like it had been there for awhile but it wasn't shown on any OEM schematic I saw.

My only other thing I can think of (and I dread) is that awhile ago when it originally did this to me, I was low on oil. I cannot recall how low but it needed a change. If the engine accumulated metal filings and is seizing because of it, I should figure out how to rid the pistons of any debris they might be coming against. You think that would cause an engine to stop and not start on the roll mid freeway speed?

The other odd thing, today my starter didn't want to turn over after a few tries as well, the button called it quits. It has done that one other time but after I let it rest, it went right back up again with no problems.

After reviewing all this data (and my wild imaginations) I think its still a jetting issue and my bike is flooding because I have pulled the fuel bowl drain screw and it seemed to work for awhile after that quite well.

My instinct is to bring the jet needle down further than half way and see if that will resolve any flooding. I'd hate to rebuild an engine ($$$ = not me) because I neglected this old girl and hope that its only the jet needle.

Anyone with a good expertise on this please advise. If its too big a problem, any shop near (or in) Fairfield that you would recommend would be nice as well. I took it to Unlimited Motorsports in Livermore (I just moved) and they gave it back to me in the same condition as it is now after $250+ of unproductive results so I am weary to take it to another shop.

Thanks!
~Jason~

 

[luckett]

I highly doubt it's a jetting issue if the jets/needle are stock and in good condition. Is your needle jet worn? Have you checked your float level setting?

 

[Gibsontaylor]

I have an aftermarket jet kit in which is in good condition and the shop cleaned the float bowl. I'd assume they checked the float level setting but I guess I should check for S&G.

Where is my happy medium when looking at the levels?

 

[luckett]

Check the seating suface of the needle valve that's in the float while you're in there.

Did your jet kit come with a new needle jet?

You've never fully explained what is happening when it dies. A little more detail might help.

 

[Roadstergal]

"I have pulled the fuel bowl drain screw and it seemed to work for awhile after that quite well."

But it didn't fix it? What is 'quite well' compared to the symptoms before?

When did this start? Did the start of the problem coincide with something that happened to the bike (installation of jet kit, maintenance, a good crash)?


(There's a lazy bastige way of checking the float height that I used on a GS that was annoying me - get a length of clear tubing of the right diameter to seal properly to the carb drain, attach to the carb drain, hold it up above the carb, then open the drain screw and turn the petcock to Prime. The level in the tubing will end up about at the level in the carbs. It's not as precise as measuring the thing, but it gives you a ballpark idea without having to pull the carb.

My DR had a problem with the vacuum line that was fixed under warranty, but it ran perfectly kept on Prime to bypass the vacuum while I waited for the parts to come in.)


(Is 'lemans terms' a run to the bike at the starter pistol?)

 

[Gibsontaylor]

Sorry, me "quite well" was "its running and it sounds fine until it happened again".

I looked at the shop papers I got a few weeks ago and my float is where it needs to be according to their repair/diagnostics. I'm lazy at this time and don't want to pull the carb off the bike, I'll take their word for it.

What will happen is after running the bike for 20-30 mins no matter what speed I'm running it, the bike will die as if someone came by and hit my kilswitch. It wont let me pop the clutch in attempts to get a rolling jump back into running, the rear wheel starts to feel like I'm braking hard. To avoid any possible downs in the middle of the street, I will try to get a rolling start a few times, even throw it into neutral and use the starter... nothing. After this happens, the ill fated attempts get less and less productive as the bike will sputter, backfire, or not even run for a full 3 seconds.

After a while trying to start, it will sound like my battery is dying (Which it shouldn't be because its new and fully charged as of a week ago. The bike did this behavior even after the battery was charged.) and it will even go to refusing to turn over and it gives me the spark plug firing just before the starter gives up altogether.

When this started was out of the blue, I was riding the bike about twice a week, twice a day, one hour each (commuting) and one day it decided to stop working, no reasoning at all from what I can tell. Really, it's a 96, she's up in the years (and warranties are distant memories) and I know she was neglected before but I want to get her up to prime so that I can enjoy a decent GPM for commuting and all around great twisties & off-road ride (with appropriate tires of course).

...& I think I spelled "lemans" wrong. Whichever one means "dumb it up for us simple folk," that one =P.

I'm going to move the jet to see if its a flooding issue. Also, you think the octane of the fuel makes a difference? I'm using 91 currently.

Any other brain picking you would like to do and/or advise, please fire away and thank you for all the good input thus far!

~J~

 

[Gibsontaylor]

And my starter isn't working now. How do you determine if its the starter or the button assembly? Should I give it a day off? Who ever heard of a bike that needed a vacation? ><

 

[luckett]

I think you're chasing your tail by looking at fuel delivery. My money says your stator is going bad.

 

[Roadstergal]

Charging system is also easy to check. Throw a multimeter across the terminals, then start the bike and see if you get a charging voltage.

 

[luckett]

Or you can check resistance to see if it's out of spec.

BTW, if it is the stator, the moose replacement stators are listed incorrectly in EVERYONE'S parts lookup. Moose made a mistake and listed the early DR stator as a late DR part and now everyone lists it wrong.

 

[masameet]

Yesterday I spent about 6 hours working on my DRZ, including installing a new spark plug (it was due like BOINK! 2500 miles ago). Instead of detaching the fuel line, we did the lazy person's job of just removing the nearly full Clarke tank and keeping it just barely off of the frame. With web strapping around the tank, we tied it off to the right-side handlebar and then put something bulky underneath it. Because it was hoisted on its BOINK AGAIN! left side reaching the spark plug was, oh, just slightly problematic.

The vapor line had come off of the petcock while the tank was resting off of the bike, so it was an easy re-install. And just as I warmed the bike up (it hadn't been on for almost 5 hours), it sputtered to a stop. The choke was fully out too. I thought, Crap! Hit the Start button again and twisted the throttle and this time the bike stayed on, even after I gradually pushed in the choke. We listened to my bike as she warmed up and then Alan said, Maybe the idling's a little low? So I turned the idle screw to the right and I have to admit, the engine sounded much stronger. For good measure I also unscrewed the gas cap and let the tank breathe for a second or two.

Dunno if your problem is electrical. But if it's not spark, then it's gas delivery or too much air. The old plug was on the white-ish side, so later I'm going to have to either install a bigger main jet or tape up some of the 3x3 mod box. I'm going to try the taping first.

Also I forget, but if there's no fuel screen, then it's possible some sediment or crap might be blocking one of the petcock thingamabobs (straws?) that sits inside the tank.

But I'm no mechanic. Just offering guesses.

 

[slydrite]

Humidty in the tubes?

 

[masameet]

Water molecules are denser than hydrocarbons. So if the OP drains the float bowl, where water would collect, and still has hesitation problems, then his problem is likely something else. Or so I'd guess.

Trail Tech has this write-up on how to check if a stator (and other electrical parts) might be bad.

Also if your bike still has a kickstand safety switch, check that it's not cutting off power.

And OP, you might want to check on Thumper Talk (or ADVrider) for optimal clip placement on the DR650 carb needle. If it's too high up, I think, like on the DRZ, it can cause a lean condition, which in a way is like fuel starvation. Which might manifest itself as hesitation. Plus check your jets -- if they're too small or clogged, and your bike has an aftermarket pipe (dunno if the 3x3 mod is done on the DR650), then you'll need to go up in size on the jets.

 

[luckett]

Humidty in the tubes?

Water molecules are denser than hydrocarbons. So if the OP drains the float bowl, where water would collect, and still has hesitation problems, then his problem is likely something else. Or so I'd guess.

I think he's talking about the electrical tubes...

 

[Roadstergal]

I think he's talking about the electrical tubes...

If I have electricity stuck in my tubes, how do I purge them?

 

[luckett]

If I have electricity stuck in my tubes, how do I purge them?

First, loosen the drain bolt on the electricity reservoir and then take the red wire off of battery. Hold it higher than all the other wires so it drains out at the lowest point.

 

[Gibsontaylor]

While I'm checking all these fun and fancy items, I'm getting tired of the starter. Any good recommendations on a kick start? Again, 96 DR650.

Hopefully going retro might lessen headaches with any of my starter issues.

I'll get to playing with things throughout the week. Again, the input is much appreciated!

 

[masameet]

If I have electricity stuck in my tubes, how do I purge them?

That's easy. Just ask slydrite.

 

[Gibsontaylor]

UPDATE:

Problem #1 The Starter:

Nothing on the market for kick starters for my bike, the exhaust pipe is in the way >< shot down there. I chased the wires from the starter button & found a worn and frayed wire tucked away in a perfect location to make my knuckles bleed. I fixed it with much swearing *&@$$$#%!!!! While I was in there, I noticed a possible wire to the killswitch that was in a similar (but lesser) condition. Gotta love the soldering iron & shrink wrap tubing ^^. Jumped the bike & she started up quite nicely.

I also noted that there was a rats nest of a patch job to install grip warmers and to be on the safe side, I disconnected the wire from the battery and will find a good alternate area to splice the positive so they work again, possibly the lighting wires. Any good recommendations welcome.

Problem #2 The stalling mid-ride:

After opening the carburetor, I placed the jet needle washer to the second highest notch (previously on the second from bottom, six notches total) making the needle sit low and leaning out my mix (I think my logic is right there, correct me if I'm wrong *DISCLAIMER* you will never see ANYONE open themselves to scrutiny on a forum as open & honest as that so please, be gentle). I drained the carburetor via its plug before I had all the starter issues.

After all this, I ran the bike around doing miscellaneous errands starting it hot & cold, running it up to about 70mph, and surpassed its recent stamina of 30-45 mins of run time.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't go back to dying on me like that ever again.

Problem #3 Oil Leak off the Head?!?!?!:

While probing, I noticed some smoke coming from the header (car equivalent, is that right? the Head / exhaust junction) and smelled oil. To my surprise, the inspection cap on the front header is leaking due to a stripped bolt that appeared to be a previous patch job from a previous owner. I ordered 2 new gaskets for these caps (If I'm monkeying with one, why not the other ^^) and 2 new bolts for the front cap as the two on it are either stripped or a hex key head (Who does that? Honestly!).

My 50 cent question, how would I restore a good threading in this place (of high heat) so that I can use the OEM bolt? I know it requires a tap regardless but do I need to disregard the original screws and find a bigger bore? If all is lost, I can tap a bigger thread but I am unsure of the space I have to do this. The leak is not big and I have been watching my oil levels like a hawk, its not a gusher, just enough to notice a smoke trail & oil smell.

Thanks for all the input thus far, its been a good help checking different things on my bike! Keep up the good work & suggestions!

~J~

 

[luckett]

I also noted that there was a rats nest of a patch job to install grip warmers and to be on the safe side, I disconnected the wire from the battery and will find a good alternate area to splice the positive so they work again, possibly the lighting wires. Any good recommendations welcome.

Blowing that circuit on a cold, wet and dark night is not going to be fun. Run it to the battery to keep the circuits independent and prevent frying any wires. With the grips on, you're going to be drawing about 40% more power thru the lighting circuit.

Problem #2 The stalling mid-ride:

After opening the carburetor, I placed the jet needle washer to the second highest notch (previously on the second from bottom, six notches total) making the needle sit low and leaning out my mix

The needle setting does not really impact the jetting at idle much. If the bike died and wouldn't restart, the needle setting shouldn't be the problem as it is not affecting the bikes jetting while starting. That's handled by the pilot and pilot air jets.

If the needle setting was causing an excessive rich condition, it would have bogged and/or died well before 30 minutes elapsed. And if the needle and jetting were that close to excessive richness, it would run like crap regardless of the clip setting. Changing two clips on the needle will not make a bike go from running well to dying from richness. It's not your needle setting.

Don't make multiple fixes when diagnosing a problem or you wont know what fixed it.

]
To my surprise, the inspection cap on the front header is leaking due to a stripped bolt that appeared to be a previous patch job from a previous owner.

Two inspection caps on the header? No comprende. Do you mean the two bolts on the muffler?