What to do with outside leg in turn

[TurDz]

Hey guys,

I've been reading the Sport Riding Techniques book by Nick Ienatsch, just taking a few pointers and applying them slowly I gain more experience.
I make sure not to read too much at once or else I'll just overload myself with more information than I need during my rides...

Anyway, during a turn, this book really advocates using the outside leg to apply pressure to the tank to help shift weight, in combination with your inside butt cheek slightly off the bike. The author says it helps take load off of your hands for more precise steering.

After watching MotoGP races more closely, like Dovizioso, he does not do this at all, as seen below:

Both styles obviously work successfully; one is written by an experience rider/teacher, the other, demonstrated by a professional.

Can anyone explain the reasoning for the differences in style and technique?

 

[kiel]

I think this picture is a bit deceptive. If you look at his inner thigh he is pressed into the tank. Granted his knee is pointing skyward, but the only way to avoid that at extreme lean angles would be to fracture his femur multiple times and velcro it to the tank.

You shouldn't feel like you are falling off the bike. With the proper body position you should feel planted and in control. You should even be able to remove both hands (not advised) and not have it affect anything. Use your thigh to put pressure on the tank, this makes it easier for you to use the muscles in your torso to support your body, keep your arms loose, and never use the brakes...ever.

 

[Blacknblue]

I think this picture is a bit deceptive. If you look at his inner thigh he is pressed into the tank. Granted his knee is pointing skyward, but the only way to avoid that at extreme lean angles would be to fracture his femur multiple times and velcro it to the tank.

You shouldn't feel like you are falling off the bike. With the proper body position you should feel planted and in control. You should even be able to remove both hands (not advised) and not have it affect anything. Use your thigh to put pressure on the tank, this makes it easier for you to use the muscles in your torso to support your body, keep your arms loose, and never use the brakes...ever.

 

[B-Cuz]

I think this picture is a bit deceptive. If you look at his inner thigh he is pressed into the tank. Granted his knee is pointing skyward, but the only way to avoid that at extreme lean angles would be to fracture his femur multiple times and velcro it to the tank.

You shouldn't feel like you are falling off the bike. With the proper body position you should feel planted and in control. You should even be able to remove both hands (not advised) and not have it affect anything. Use your thigh to put pressure on the tank, this makes it easier for you to use the muscles in your torso to support your body, keep your arms loose, and never use the brakes...ever.

Trailbraking is a myth.

Do a trackday, books won't teach you shit. Additionally, don't over think your actions.

 

[RhythmRider]

There are about a million different ways to ride a motorcycle. Ideally, you want to hang off as much as you can to reduce lean angle. However, you will need some purchase on the tank with your outside leg for stability. If your ass is all the way off the seat and you're not holding on with your lower body, then guess what's gonna happen when you hit a bump and you're supporting your weight on the handlebars?

Here's the bottom line... you need to be completely loose on the bars with your arms relaxed, and you need to hang off the bike to reduce lean angle. Make both of those things happen, and you'll be doing it right. The rest is just personal preference.

 

[RhythmRider]

Do a trackday, books won't teach you shit. Additionally, don't over think your actions.

Actually, I started out by riding on the street and reading books like Sport Riding Techniques for the first 2 years. On my first track day I was doing times that would have qualified me for racing in the AFM... so yeah, you can learn without visiting the track.

 

[TurDz]

Thanks for the comments.

I also read books and apply them at my own pace during my street rides. It's basically proving to yourself what your read. Very fun to do.

 

[Keith Code]

Trailbraking is a myth.

Do a trackday, books won't teach you shit. Additionally, don't over think your actions.

Hmmmmmm, I wonder if this advice is going to set civilization back another few thousand years...?

One other thing to look at in the photo is the lean angle and think about the down force in the seat. He's over past 45 degrees which means his butt is experiencing at least a 1.4 g load into the seat. In a lot of ways, the faster you go the easier it is to stay in contact with the bike without upsetting it at the handlebars. Another important point is how well the bike fits the rider. Once you get the bars, pegs, seat height and tilt just right, as I'm sure the Repsol team did for Andre, you get a whole different feel for the bike.

Keith

 

[Spec-ECU]

In a lot of ways, the faster you go the easier it is to stay in contact with the bike without upsetting it at the handlebars.

I've noticed that since my pace increased, there's less effort to hang off because I feel that the momentum I've carried through my corner speed helps support my body on the bike. Is that the same thing you're talking about, Keith?

I'm a proponent of locking your outside leg against the tank during turns, not only for relieving your arms (and ultimately the bars) of any weight, but also to be able to pull yourself back into the bike (or to the other side to set up for a turn) more effectively.

 

[ucb]

You actually want to anchor your inner thigh on the tank, if you knee is anchored you are probably hanging off too much

 

[Desmodromic]

Hmmmmmm, I wonder if this advice is going to set civilization back another few thousand years...?

One other thing to look at in the photo is the lean angle and think about the down force in the seat. He's over past 45 degrees which means his butt is experiencing at least a 1.4 g load into the seat. In a lot of ways, the faster you go the easier it is to stay in contact with the bike without upsetting it at the handlebars. Another important point is how well the bike fits the rider. Once you get the bars, pegs, seat height and tilt just right, as I'm sure the Repsol team did for Andre, you get a whole different feel for the bike.

Keith

True statement

 

[Keith Code]

I've noticed that since my pace increased, there's less effort to hang off because I feel that the momentum I've carried through my corner speed helps support my body on the bike. Is that the same thing you're talking about, Keith?

I'm a proponent of locking your outside leg against the tank during turns, not only for relieving your arms (and ultimately the bars) of any weight, but also to be able to pull yourself back into the bike (or to the other side to set up for a turn) more effectively.

Definitely, you've got it, more lean, more speed, less effort to anchor yourself.

Sure, and you can see from the butt cams on Moto GP that many of them are doing the same thing when moving side to side on the bike.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

You actually want to anchor your inner thigh on the tank, if you knee is anchored you are probably hanging off too much

Inner thigh? I don't think so. You'd have to be leaned over about 60 degrees to get your knee down snd still have your inner thigh on the tank.

Keith

 

[Spec-ECU]

Definitely, you've got it, more lean, more speed, less effort to anchor yourself.

Sure, and you can see from the butt cams on Moto GP that many of them are doing the same thing when moving side to side on the bike.

Keith

Thanks!

A follow-up question, though I might be digressing, but since you're here...

At full lean, does it help to move myself further back on the seat, away from the tank? I'm thinking of this as a means to allow my upper body more room to get as close to the tank.

 

[BillSmith]

"When analyzing performance, it is dangerous to take a still photo of an athlete and extrapolate form and function."

Above is my stock answer regarding instructing athletes. I would believe that it would apply to riders. In that one moment of time a photo was taken, the rider may have made a minor adjustment or was fighting a bike's suspension, his line through turns, a bump, a reaction to a trailed competitor, etc. Could be any number of explainations for a visual anomoly.

 

[ucb]

Inner thigh? I don't think so. You'd have to be leaned over about 60 degrees to get your knee down snd still have your inner thigh on the tank.

Keith

The inner thigh is a large area...just above the knee is the inner thigh, just below the sack is also the inner thigh. I'm talking about the portion just above the knee. Im also 6' tall, so if my knee is fully locked, im hanging off like a monkey

 

[Keith Code]

Thanks!

A follow-up question, though I might be digressing, but since you're here...

At full lean, does it help to move myself further back on the seat, away from the tank? I'm thinking of this as a means to allow my upper body more room to get as close to the tank.

Depends on your height and leg length. If you move back and have short legs it may be hard to get a grip on the tank. Long legs would be the opposite, easier to get a grip. This can make a really big difference. Riders tend to be more relaxed when achieve an optimum seating position for them, that's one of the things we use the Lean/Slide bike for and it is really effective. But there isn't a single answer, it's something that is best coached.

There can be aerodynamic considerations as well with where you are on the bike.

Keith

 

[tzrider]

The inner thigh is a large area...just above the knee is the inner thigh, just below the sack is also the inner thigh. I'm talking about the portion just above the knee. Im also 6' tall, so if my knee is fully locked, im hanging off like a monkey

If your hips are rotated around the tank at all, it's next to impossible to get your knee onto the side of the tank. If your hips are square to the tank, or even opened to the turn a little bit, you can get your knee onto the tank quite easily without hanging off much at all.

 

[Keith Code]

The inner thigh is a large area...just above the knee is the inner thigh, just below the sack is also the inner thigh. I'm talking about the portion just above the knee. Im also 6' tall, so if my knee is fully locked, im hanging off like a monkey

Understood. However, if you even have one cheek off the bike I can't make it physically work to still get a knee down and have contact with the tank. Unless, you are rotating around the tank to the inside which is counter productive. But, if that is your picture you are using as an avatar, I don't see you doing much of that.

Keith

 

[ucb]

Yeah that's me and I drag knee without 60 degree lean angles, not sure why I rarely actually get my knee into the tank cut-out. I do in fact make contact with the tank, just the portion of my leg right above the knee. And I'm usually pretty good at keeping my shoulders squared up to the turn and shoot for 1 cheek off, but still tend to have some air between my knee and the tank. The only time I tend to get that knee fully in is if im hanging way off trying to pose for the track photographers

I guess it can really depend on rider height, rear-set height, etc. Perhaps just a misunderstanding, I never meant to imply that you can get away with not having some portion of your leg locked into the outside tank cut-out