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Why does bump-starting work?

ALANRIDER7 said:
Then why bump start it???

Because it shows mad skillz? :laughing




And because some people foolish enough to love late '70's bikes have underpowered alternators (due to the 'headlight on' law) and don't like buying batteries on a yearly basis? :teeth
 
Most of the questions have been answered. But here's some of my responses.

Yes, the entire assembly (static coil and moving magnets) is called the alternator. Very simple device, actually.

All alternators are pretty much the same in pricipal. And it's always the magnets that spin. For permanent magnet types, sometimes on the outside of the coil windings like in the SV above. Sometimes on the inside of the windings on other bikes. For the field coil types where the magnetic field is generated by eletricity, it's always spinning on the inside as far as my experience indicates.

Batteries only store DC current. AC current cannot be stored. So, the AC current from an alternator needs to be converted to DC to be most useful on a bike or other vehicle.

Yes there is oil in there if it's a sealed unit. The reason this is done is that it is simpler to not have to make a seal on a rotating shaft which is what you would need to do if the alternator was air cooled. Also, if you keep the alternator inside the motor housing, besides not needing a rotating seal, there are also fewer parts and simpler parts which translates to less weight.

I have no idea what the ratio of permanent magnet types to the electromagnet types is. But I'd suspect that the majority are still permanent magnet type.

Generators and magnetos both produce DC current and are fundamentally the same device in pricipal. However, magnetos are specifically designed to produce very high voltage levels. 20, 30, 40,000 volts or more to provide spark for spark plugs. They are completely unsuitable for charging batteries and running everything else on a bike and therefore, you still need some sort of regular charging system.

Almost all modern cars and trucks use alternators with field coil systems. Seems they're much more efficient, or at least that's what I hear.

'Hope all that helps.
 
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recently had to bump-start my [FI] 650r - piece of cake....
 
Bikerx260 said:
You missed one part. The sprockets turn the transmission. You shift to engage 2nd or 3rd gear (or higher). The transmission is disengaged because you are holding the clutch lever in. Pop the clutch, and you now have the engine turning, which provides the compression.

OK, so I'm getting the whole spark thing--which is great! I'm needing more about the compression part and how the transmission is related to that.

Rolling down hill, bike switch is on (and battery has just a little bit of life left in it...) I'm in 2nd gear and I let out the clutch quickly...what is happening inside? I've got electrical current because the turning of the rear wheel is in a long-hand way creating the spark. But how's the fuel getting to where it needs to be to get lit?

(by the way, I suuuuuck at bump-starting, and I think it's largely because I don't understand it. This is helping!)
 
storm said:
recently had to bump-start my [FI] 650r - piece of cake....

Do you think it was easy because it was warm? It's a small engine? I've tried bump starting my 900 when it's cold...forget it. Ain't happening. I think it's because there's just too much mass. I think...
 
When an engine is giving me trouble and doesnt want to start, I smell for fuel in the exhaust pipe. If there isnt any fuel smell, then I know I have to a) pull the choke, b) spray some starting fluid on the air cleaner, c) make sure fuel is getting to the carb. Im not sure if all or any of these will help if your bump starting your bike, but if you smell fuel in the exhaust pipe at least you know thats not your problem. If you have fuel, then your missing spark. I pull the plugs if Im not sure whats going on, because they will tell you alot. Its not easy when bump starting a bike, but you could use jumper cables from your other bike and start it. Your bike is cold, your battery is dead or close to it and there isnt enough voltage to run your ECU or having a hot spark to ignite those gases than your giving it. When your engine is warm, your stator was trying to charge your weak/dead battery when it was running and there is enough voltage with what little the battery is putting out to run things when bump starting it. Hope this helps rather than confuse you.
 
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DucatiHoney said:
But how's the fuel getting to where it needs to be to get lit?

If carbureted, the downstroke of each piston creates a low pressure on the engine side of the carbs. Air flows from high (outside) to low (inside the cylinder) pressure. The rush of air passing through the carburetor venturi accelerates, causing a low pressure in the throat of the carb. Fuel from the float bowl rises through the jet(s) and is atomized as it enters the cylinder. So that part is all purely natural fluid dynamics.

FI is the same except the fuel is forced/pumped and sprayed into the throttle body. But the air is being pulled in the same as above.

Basically, your engine is an air pump. As long as the crankshaft is turning and pistons jumping up and down, it sucks in air from outside and spits it out the exhaust. If combustion happens to occur (fuel/air and spark), it becomes self-perpetuating.
 
DucatiHoney said:
OK, so I'm getting the whole spark thing--which is great! I'm needing more about the compression part and how the transmission is related to that.

Rolling down hill, bike switch is on (and battery has just a little bit of life left in it...) I'm in 2nd gear and I let out the clutch quickly...what is happening inside? I've got electrical current because the turning of the rear wheel is in a long-hand way creating the spark. But how's the fuel getting to where it needs to be to get lit?

(by the way, I suuuuuck at bump-starting, and I think it's largely because I don't understand it. This is helping!)

When you roll down the hill and let the clutch out, the rear wheel pushes the engine through it's normal routine. The normal routine includes creating electricity, drawing fuel into the carburator (more later) and creating spark at the appropriate time (more later.)

I'm aiming for the big principles here, so if there are mistakes, those who can, please correct me.

The normal routine:

Four stroke motor:
1. Intake. The intake valve opens near the top of the piston stroke. As the crankshaft turns, the piston is drawn down in the cylinder creating a vacuum. On a carburated bike the air/fuel mixture coming from the carburator is drawn into the cylinder.

2. Compression. The crankshaft continues to turn (usually because the flywheel carries enough energy to keep the rotation going) and it then begins to push the piston back up into the cylinder. The intake valve is closed now. As the piston nears the top of the stroke, the air/fuel mixture is compressed, making it's ignition more like an explosion. The ignition system has ways of detecting where the bike is at this point, and high voltage is passed to the spark plug where it ignites the fuel/air mixture.

3. This begins the power stroke. The expanding "explosion" of the air/fuel mixture forces the piston back down in the cylinder. The power of this is controlled mostly by how much air/fuel is in there to be burnt. This is where the power on your bike comes from- the energy is passed to the transmission, chain, and wheel.

4. At the bottom of the power stroke, the exhaust valve opens, the piston begins to rise in the cylinder again (because we've just introduced a whole lot of rotational force into the system with power stroke) and as the cylinder is pushed up by the flywheel, the exhaust gasses flow out into the exhaust system. The exhaust vavle closes and you go back to step one.

When you push start your bike, you introduce the power to turn the crankshaft by using the energy created by your moving bike. (linked there by the chain to the transmission to the clutch to the crankshaft.)

By turning the crankshaft in this manner, the stator (or alternator) creates electricity because it is being pushed. In reality it is always being pushed by the engine. It doesn't know the difference between the starter/engine/push start. It's designed to generate electricity when it turns, so when it does turn, it does generate. The faster you turn it, the more it can make. This could come into play when you push start your bike, since you may not be able to generate enough to get a good spark.

The carburator works on a venturi principle (very basic description follows.) The carbuator is a tube that is big on one end, has a restriction in the middle, then is big again on the other. There are many ways to accomplish this, so it may not be readily obvious when you put your eyeball to work. So, as the air passes through the restriction and then into the larger tube at the end of the carb, the air has lower pressure. The carbuator is designed to adjust the pressure by allowing a measured amount of fuel to be drawn into this lower pressure section. Thus, in essence equalizing the pressure using gas molocules. The gas comes in through jets that are designed to atomize the fuel (like the perfume atomizers- really!) so that it burns evenly when it's in the engine. The control of how much air/fuel comes in is a big disk that turns in the carburator (linked to the throttle) to open, close, or modulate the flow of air.

So, just like the alternator, the carburator is completely passive and is designed to work based on the amount of air being drawn through it. When you bump start your bike, the piston draws air through the carburator, the air/fuel mixture flows in.

Some considerations... Our bikes all have headlights that are on in the default. This creates a draw on the electrical system any time that the ignition key is on. With a dead battery, the lights will draw electricity away from the engine when you try to bump start it. You will be more successful if you disable them- easily done by pulling the fuse.
 
you guys are good. the title should be changed to "how engines work" for future reference. We've even got the intake compression power exhaust thing...
 
boney,

Generally correct. A few minor and major points. No criticism intended...

The falling piston on the intake stroke creates a low pressure, not a vaccum. Well, actually, a low pressure would be a "partial vaccum". But...

Ignition near the top of the compression stroke is very actually a high velocity controlled but, not an explosion. When an explosion does occur due to various factors, that's "detonation" and will destroy your engine in short order.

The carburetor doesn't introduce fuel to equalize the pressure. The pressure differential (float bowl/outside pressure vs high speed low pressure air in the venturi) simply sucks gas out of the float bowl, through the jet(s), and onward into the cylinder. Constant velocity carbs use a slide suspended from a membrane to maintain near constant air velocity in the venturi, but that's a whole other <sic> story.

Overall, very good info. Thanks.
 
ChuckBecker said:
boney,

Generally correct. A few minor and major points. No criticism intended...

<snip>

None taken. I went from old pumper carbs straight to fuel injection, and now I'm back learning the CV carb thing since my current bike has one. (I can fix it, but I'll be damned if I can't figure out how it works... Not that I've put much time into either.)
 
Hey DC,
If this hasn't cooked your brain enough already. Ask this question.
How do you bump start a motorcycle with a slipper clutch?
 
No personal experience with slipper clutches, but I was curious, so:

"One of the issues to consider with the compromise that is slipper clutch design is the method of starting, with external dry clutches it is possible to lock the clutch manually for starting, In MotoGP Ducati, Suzuki and WCM use this method. With wet clutches it is very difficult to lock the clutch so the game depends on the likely start system..."

From: http://www.sigmaperformance.com/motogpcurrentdeal.html
 
I bump started my cold 996 with a dead battery several times. It took a medium-sized hill or a strong friend, but it worked. Don't forget to bounce on the seat!
 
All right. I'll be the idiot.

What's the bouncing on the seat for?
 
DucatiHoney said:
All right. I'll be the idiot.

What's the bouncing on the seat for?

Weights the back contact patch and prevents the back tire from locking.
 
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