Why NASCAR is better viewing than F1

[carbonfiber]

I agree with thebusby. Sports car racing is by far the most exciting in terms of overall racing excitement (on 4 wheels.) I really like the SPEED Challenge series since they do a really good job of levelling the playing field. The F1 qualifying was pretty cool, though. Watching Kimi throw that car around the highspeed sweepers was pretty awesome.

 

[Xenophonii]

I'm with you!

I find amatuer/semi-pro events to be fun and exciting. I'll tell ya why - the races are often very intense and everyone is there to race and have fun. Once too much money and prestige are pumped into an event, folks stop having fun... it's just too serious for me.

Oh, if you want to watch good automobile racing with many passes for the lead I suggest either American Lemans, SCCA events, or Speedvisions touring car coverage either at home or abroad.

Its hard to find an alternative that isn't better than NASCAR its just most people don't know about them since they aren't carried by ABC,NBC,CBS, or Fox.

 

[morthrane]

WTF? are you kidding that tennis is not a real sport? Tennis players are more fit than almost any other sports players. You can be fat and play a lot of sports such as baseball, but not tennis.

Yeah, but when said tennis player gets blindsided by a 315lbs defensive end who runs the 40 in 4.6 seconds... well.

NASCAR boils down to a couple hours of a bunch of people drafting while trying to not cause 50 car pileups.

F1 however, requires much more understanding of what's going on. Strategy comes into play as the whole race has a sense of suspence to see if a 3 pit stop strategy is going to pay off.

Comparing F1 to golf is a nice comparison... you have to understand the game to enjoy it.

Your arguments make no sense-- everything you accuse NASCAR of, I swear is also prevailent in F1. Pit strategies? Both rely strongly on that, especially if NASCAR is running with restrictor plates. F1 is usually hideous boring between drafting and downforce-- you draft, you don't have downforce and less braking power.

In a sense, the more I think about it the more I find them very similar. NASCAR produces the most ferociously tuned cars given the limiting rules short of drag racing. F1 cars are similar in that respect-- easily the best, highest tuned cars in the world given their rules and their venues.

Hah... but as much as I dislike NASCAR as a spectator sport, I really, really laugh when someone thinks its easy-- quite frankly when you say that, you sound like a complete moron. If it was easy, then top notch NASCAR drivers wouldn't die on superspeedways because they turned their car in a couple of seconds of a degree too far into a turn. Its easy, right?

 

[Holeshot]

The F1 race I watched, nearly 20% lost their motors in the span of 90 miles...90 FRICKING MILES!!! and THAT is what's so marveleous? This "High Tech" that blows a motor in less than 100 miles? It's like a new vette motor!

Take an F1 guy and put him in a NASCAR (Winston cup by the way) and he'll hit the wall at lap 60. Why? Cause there's no such thing as conservation in F1. At such a short distance, it's all about running the tires down and then getting a change. I don't think I've ever seen anyone "save" their car for the end. Then again, it is a different animal. My point? You can't cross field drivers and say one will whup the shit outa the other based on the series.

Take some of the CART drivers who have and are driving Winston Cup: Tony Stewart, Robby Gordon, PJ Jones, Scott Goodyear...None have won a championship and Tony's the only one close to winning. BUT, he gets beat regularly. He doesn't run away from the field on a regular occasion, like say Jeff Gordon or Dale Jarrett, two Nascar regulars.

Or better yet, how about we look at the endurance factor behind Nascar Winston Cup. These guys run 500 mile races EVERY WEEKEND FOR 36 WEEKENDS! I'm sorry, but the vaunted F1 drivers would not have time for that in between Latte's and manicures...It's a crazy schedule the Nascar guys run, and their races are something of an event as well.

Everyone says "they're not drivers, they drive in a circle". Yeah, true, but they do have a few roadracing events that are getting pushed for more. They also have a totally different style of racing. Some guys like to go out hard and other like to wait till the end, all the while pitstops are tweaking the cars like no other due to an increased cloud cover or changing temperatures...Blow a front tire and hit the wall at 180....

Their technology is anything but....Right! They've got multi-millions in simple aero and engine packages. They do it all without turbos or even displacement, and they keep their shit together for the entire race (most of them at least) unless they put too small a gear in.

Brakes? did I see someone say they don't use brakes? That's retarded. OF COURSE THEY USE BRAKES!

The best part is how so many of you say "it's an oval, those guys suck as drivers", yet Nicky Haden, and Wayne Rainey came from ovals to the top of the motorcycle world. I see no one saying that motorcycle ovals require less skill from the rider...and even if, what's the explantation for the fact that most of our superbike winners are former oval champions?

The technology factor is F1 is a freaking joke. With enough money thrown at something that has such open rules, it's amazing to even wonder why one guy runs away with the race and the camera men have to focus on 13th and 14th place for passes.

Like I said before, yellow flags in Winston Cup are full course cautions. If it was this way with F1, it would be much more exciting...then again, the nice thing is those races are over in 1 hour....

 

[carbonfiber]

I'm glad to see that NASCAR is getting their marketing money's worth.

Holeshot

Why are you bagging so hard on F1? You watch one race and suddenly can give commentary on the history of the series? It's cool that you like NASCAR. I personally don't, but you make yourself look like an ass when you make general statements about an entire series based on one race. There are clearly talented drivers in NASCAR. I personally feel that Tony Stewart is probably the most talented driver in the series. Have you watched him drive an SRP car? Maybe his oval performance isn't on par with that of his top competitors, but when he can step into a sports car and be within a second a lap of Didier Theys and James Weaver, that tells me the guy is a damn talented driver.

Trust me, there is a lot more to racing than turning left. Don't buy into the NASCAR marketing hype. If you want to watch the most talented drivers in the world race (IMO,) watch WRC. Those guys will give you a true demonstration of driving ability.

 

[Robert R1]

The F1 race I watched, nearly 20% lost their motors in the span of 90 miles...90 FRICKING MILES!!! and THAT is what's so marveleous? This "High Tech" that blows a motor in less than 100 miles? It's like a new vette motor!

It's called, trying to maximize the motor's output to produce competitive laptimes. 3000cc N/A motors that must run on 100 Octane Gas. They Rev up to 18,500rpm for the good motors and produce well past 850HP. Let's see Chevy and Ford make that. BTW, the Jaguar Race Team, owned by Ford has dumped hundreds of millions in their F1 programs and still aren't midpack.

Take an F1 guy and put him in a NASCAR (Winston cup by the way) and he'll hit the wall at lap 60. Why? Cause there's no such thing as conservation in F1. At such a short distance, it's all about running the tires down and then getting a change. I don't think I've ever seen anyone "save" their car for the end. Then again, it is a different animal. My point? You can't cross field drivers and say one will whup the shit outa the other based on the series.

Wrong again. Pit strategy and Fuel/Tire conservation play a huge role in F1. When stuck behind a car, it's up the driver to conserve his car to try and squeeze a few extra laps out after the other guy pits in. This way, he can do a few extra hot laps on a light fuel load, pit in and hopefully come out ahead. This stuff is calculated to the last litre of fuel in the car. In NASCAR, some hick simply "reckons" that they can go the distance or not.

Take some of the CART drivers who have and are driving Winston Cup: Tony Stewart, Robby Gordon, PJ Jones, Scott Goodyear...None have won a championship and Tony's the only one close to winning. BUT, he gets beat regularly. He doesn't run away from the field on a regular occasion, like say Jeff Gordon or Dale Jarrett, two Nascar regulars.

These "road-racers" weren't excatly the Cream of the Crop in road racing. They were mid packers in their respected league put are becoming strong front runners in NASCAR with multiple wins to their credit. These people had 0 and I repeat ZERO chance to ever even get a chance to test ride a F1 car.

Or better yet, how about we look at the endurance factor behind Nascar Winston Cup. These guys run 500 mile races EVERY WEEKEND FOR 36 WEEKENDS! I'm sorry, but the vaunted F1 drivers would not have time for that in between Latte's and manicures...It's a crazy schedule the Nascar guys run, and their races are something of an event as well.

Another dumbfounded comment. An F1 driver is required to be in much better shape than any other road racer. The constant G's placed upon their bodies from cornering, braking and accelaration are much higher than any other sport. Upwards of 4g's in some fast corners and over 2g's in just braking. Guys like Schumacher workout close to 4 hours a day. Also, they must be light as possible, since their weight is added to the minimum Car weight (600kg). This way, the lighter the driver the more ballast (dead weight) the engineers can move around to improve the handling.

Everyone says "they're not drivers, they drive in a circle". Yeah, true, but they do have a few roadracing events that are getting pushed for more. They also have a totally different style of racing. Some guys like to go out hard and other like to wait till the end, all the while pitstops are tweaking the cars like no other due to an increased cloud cover or changing temperatures...Blow a front tire and hit the wall at 180....

For me to respect NASCAR, atleast half of their races should be Road Races. As for adaptability, F1 drivers manually change their brake bais every few corners, every lap. Also, their telemrity allows them and their team to make a host of adjustment which you won't ever know about unless you follow the sport. Not to mention, the tire pressure and downforce adjustments at pitstops.

Their technology is anything but....Right! They've got multi-millions in simple aero and engine packages. They do it all without turbos or even displacement, and they keep their shit together for the entire race (most of them at least) unless they put too small a gear in.

Sigh: I repeat. 3000cc N/A motors that must run on 100 Octane Gas. They Rev up to 18,500rpm for the good motors and produce well past 850HP. The entire car weighs 600kg's. In the Turbo era of late 80's the BMW engine was producing upwards of 1400BHP, the DYNO wouldn't read any higher still had a few hundred revs left.

Brakes? did I see someone say they don't use brakes? That's retarded. OF COURSE THEY USE BRAKES!

Nowhere near as hard and efficient as elite Road Racers.

The best part is how so many of you say "it's an oval, those guys suck as drivers", yet Nicky Haden, and Wayne Rainey came from ovals to the top of the motorcycle world. I see no one saying that motorcycle ovals require less skill from the rider...and even if, what's the explantation for the fact that most of our superbike winners are former oval champions?

Only the American riders have a Dirt Track background. Australian's and Europeans use motocross.

The technology factor is F1 is a freaking joke. With enough money thrown at something that has such open rules, it's amazing to even wonder why one guy runs away with the race and the camera men have to focus on 13th and 14th place for passes.

It's called teamwork. Ford/Jaguar have just as big of a budget as the Ferrari, Williams and McLaren, yet fail to produce results. Ferrari's relentless pursuit of perfection, lead by Schumacher is what got them this far. I can appreciate all their hard word since I have followed the sport. It's up to the competition to catch up, not for Ferrari to slow down.

Like I said before, yellow flags in Winston Cup are full course cautions. If it was this way with F1, it would be much more exciting.

There's no need for Full course cautions. This takes away the advantage any driver has built up. Nascar is Sports Entertainment (WWF Style) whereas F1 is a Sport. .

 

[Holeshot]

I'm glad to see that NASCAR is getting their marketing money's worth.

Holeshot

Why are you bagging so hard on F1? You watch one race and suddenly can give commentary on the history of the series? It's cool that you like NASCAR. I personally don't, but you make yourself look like an ass when you make general statements about an entire series based on one race. There are clearly talented drivers in NASCAR. I personally feel that Tony Stewart is probably the most talented driver in the series. Have you watched him drive an SRP car? Maybe his oval performance isn't on par with that of his top competitors, but when he can step into a sports car and be within a second a lap of Didier Theys and James Weaver, that tells me the guy is a damn talented driver.

Trust me, there is a lot more to racing than turning left. Don't buy into the NASCAR marketing hype. If you want to watch the most talented drivers in the world race (IMO,) watch WRC. Those guys will give you a true demonstration of driving ability.

WRC is certainly great stuff to watch. I wish the coverage was better!

This was the third F1 race this season I caught. This was the first I taped and watched fully though...

My original post had a simple point: Yellow flag rules...

 

[Pedropat]

Robert 1, very well said. Hey all racing is good and there should be a variety. Everybody knows it is very difficult to reach the top in any series. It 's just that this NASCAR thing is so hyped up and over the top that it's a turn off for me. But hey,to each his own. All I have left to say is ,GO Colin,GO,DaMatta,GO,Rossi,Congrats.Nicky, Ride Safe folksld-cool PedroPat

 

[waverave r6]

I wouldnt have a problem with NASCAR if Speed Channel only played it once in a while...but every freekin day is just ridiculous. I think Ive even seen NASCAR on two-wheel tuesday!!!
I still vote to have a NASCAR channel and leave the rest of racing on Speed Channel...that would be great.

 

[Holeshot]

To note:

Cup drivers do not have ABS, Traction control, nor sequential clutchless gearboxes...

Those things make driving fast and a roadcourse Ummeasurably easier!

 

[infrandom]

While some of the more recent rule changes may be up for debate (2 way telemetry) I'll only have that discussion if your even interested in the sport, don't knock the formula one drivers of the past who drove the cars without all the newer technology.

What I was gonna say was Robert R1 I think you've explained it. Which was what my main point was, you have to understand what's going on to truley appreciate F1. Its one thing to take an F1 around a track at full speed. But to add to it manual adjustments of brake bias and everything else, that takes an amazing pilot especially considering the physical stresses on the driver. Even F1 pilots of the past can't drive the modern formula one car to anything near their potensial.

You also have to look at consecutive years. The FIA made rule changes reduced downforce considerable for last years series yet the cars were still faster around the circuits due to superior engineering. That's amazing. The battle between the FIA slowing the cars down and the engineers making them faster. Formula One is also one of the most safty consious racing series in my opinion.

I also happen to love the soap opera like drama associated with Fomula One. Contract time always makes for some good news reading.

I understand all of the stratigies involves with NASCAR and I personaly don't find it very entertaining When I started learning about the many details of F1 I was fascinated with the sport and it gives me something to look forward to every couple weekend. Oh yeah, how often does a NASCAR driver fly into a climate like Malaysia, apadt to the time/tempurature/humity/monsoon rains (yes and still race while being rained on) only to fly back to home base and spend the whole week testing testing testing then to fly into another country and reaclimate all over again. I dont know what latte's it was that you were speaking of. Formula One is a full time occupation.

 

[infrandom]

To note:

Cup drivers do not have ABS, Traction control, nor sequential clutchless gearboxes...

Those things make driving fast and a roadcourse Ummeasurably easier!

Oh by the way, are you making a comparison to F1 here? Because F1 cars have clutches, can have tranction control switched on/off at the whim/perference of the pilot, and do not have ABS.

Do NASCARs use the same 4 speed gear box on a road course?

 

[vulture]

What this discussion illustrates to me is that there are a lot of very knowledgable (and passionate) motor sports fans. And we are not getting our share of ink in the local papers.

As an aside, I would not judge a sport by who is in the best shape. If pure athletics made the difference then we would be spending all our Sundays watching track and field. To me a true sport requires both skill and intelligence.

NASCAR and F1 are both great -- they just require different skills and different strategies. And the most important thing is they give you the opportunity to stand on your chair and make noise - which is the whole point of any sport -- the spectators.

 

[Robert R1]

To note:

Cup drivers do not have ABS, Traction control, nor sequential clutchless gearboxes...

ABS: F1 cars do not have ABS or any other braking aids. Even the Brake Bais a manual knob that must be turned by hand whenever needed. Also, how many NASCAR drivers you know are proficient at Left Foot braking???

Traction Control: Only in the sense of engine misfires. Most drivers keep this turned off, since they can use oversteer to tighten up the car's line.

Sequential gearboxes: It's the pinnacle of Technology, ofcourse they will get the latest and greatest. Also, how often do NASCAR drivers shift in a lap??? Answer: Never!!! Always in 4th expect in/out of pits.

Those things make driving fast and a roadcourse Ummeasurably easier!

No. Railing a car at full speed corner after corner, lap after lap requires more precision and compromises than any other vehicle, including motorcyles. The teams in F1 will do whatever possible to lower laptimes. Sequential gearboxes are much faster than manual shifting and good for 1+ sec. a lap. 1 second a lap is eternity in Racing.

If NASCAR drivers are so talented, why don't they ever try and progress into F1 cars??? NASCAR is entertaining, F1 is racing.

 

[Holeshot]

Oh by the way, are you making a comparison to F1 here? Because F1 cars have clutches, can have tranction control switched on/off at the whim/perference of the pilot, and do not have ABS.

Do NASCARs use the same 4 speed gear box on a road course?

No comparison to F1, it's a testament to the driver interaction in NASCAR that everyone refuses to admit exists...

Have you guys watched a few different races? F1 cars have clutches? Really? Where at?

Alot of the NASCAR teams are now using roadrace boxes in their oval cars for most of the season. The new Jericho boxes are that good.

 

[Holeshot]

ABS: F1 cars do not have ABS or any other braking aids. Even the Brake Bais a manual knob that must be turned by hand whenever needed. Also, how many NASCAR drivers you know are proficient at Left Foot braking???

Traction Control: Only in the sense of engine misfires. Most drivers keep this turned off, since they can use oversteer to tighten up the car's line.

Sequential gearboxes: It's the pinnacle of Technology, ofcourse they will get the latest and greatest. Also, how often do NASCAR drivers shift in a lap??? Answer: Never!!! Always in 4th expect in/out of pits.



No. Railing a car at full speed corner after corner, lap after lap requires more precision and compromises than any other vehicle, including motorcyles. The teams in F1 will do whatever possible to lower laptimes. Sequential gearboxes are much faster than manual shifting and good for 1+ sec. a lap. 1 second a lap is eternity in Racing.

If NASCAR drivers are so talented, why don't they ever try and progress into F1 cars??? NASCAR is entertaining, F1 is racing.

Come on Robert! Have you EVER watched Nascar? It's obvious you haven't. Almost ALL THE DRIVERS USE THEIR LEFT FOOT FOR BRAKING!!!!

And depending on the track, they can shift up 2 gears a turn, and down 2...for each turn.

What requires precision is lapping at 200 mph with 43 other cars 6" away....for 3 hours! That is the defintion of precision. and, they don't have the aid of all the gadgets and do-dads.

Nascar guys would never be able to go F1. Why? Cause the European union would never have that from an American. Who was the last F1 driver that was an American? I'll say, it wasn't cause we're at a lack of talent in this country...

Both sports are demanding, but to claim one is the pinacle over the other is absurd. I'm sure a nascar driver would be in the first sand pit and a F1 driver would be in the first wall...

 

[spook]

Nascar guys would never be able to go F1. Why? Cause the European union would never have that from an American. Who was the last F1 driver that was an American? I'll say, it wasn't cause we're at a lack of talent in this country...

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think Mario Andretti was the last American driver in F1 (Team Lotus). There is an American kid (forgot his name) getting a test ride for Minardi (or was it Arrows?) next season.

I don't think the FIA conspires to discriminate against American drivers. It has a lot more to do with the fact that we are obsessed with oval track racing. There are no American manufactures/teams represented in the series. F1 has a relatively minute following here in the states, hence F1 teams do not actively recruit here since there aren't many road racers to choose from. Even the the CART teams are filled with "foreign" drivers.

 

[infrandom]

Have you guys watched a few different races? F1 cars have clutches? Really? Where at?

There are two levers on each side of the F1 wheel. I believe its common configuation to have the upper paddel as the gear selector and the lower paddel is the clutch. Its a hand controled clutch. With new rules last year, upshifts are now allowed to be done electronically, however I believe drivers have the ability to take control when they want. When you see the drivers laying down a strip of rubber as they leave for the reconisence lap they usually turn traction control off and lay down some rubber for better traction at the start of the race.

Here's a good link... Steering wheels are custom made to each driver/team so there is no one place to always find it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/static/in_depth/motorsport/2002/formula_one/car_guide/steering_wheel.stm

 

[SilverBird]

Nascar guys would never be able to go F1. Why? Cause the European union would never have that from an American. Who was the last F1 driver that was an American? I'll say, it wasn't cause we're at a lack of talent in this country...

Does that look like BS to me or what ! Senna strikes me as having been a talented European! Not to mention tons of others.

American drivers are usually not tempted to do it because of several factors among which:
- US manufacturers did not care too much in the recent past.
- When you have fame in the states, why trying to go overseas to potentially get mopped and start from scratch.


I believe Christian Fitipaldi (SP?) tried and was pretty unsuccessful. He apparently had an attitude about re-learning in a new environment with no fame and recognition (euros don't even know the names ot the top NASCAR/CART racers).

As far as racers doing it the other way I believe that Nelson Piquet and another former F1 world champ - British and from the Williams/Renault team, can't remember his name - made it successfully to the states.

From a European standpoint, racing in ovals is usually looked down upon. From my prospective, it is just a tiny bit boring. Actually I prefer Drag racing, which I can barely stand more than 5-10 minutes.


The EEC is tough on the US (it is a two way street anyway) but it is only economically and has nothing to do with formula one.

Wanna see talent? Formula one on a rainy day wow)!!

Hugo

 

[carbonfiber]

Who was the last F1 driver that was an American? I'll say, it wasn't cause we're at a lack of talent in this country...

Michael Andretti was the last American driver in F1. Bryan Herta had some test runs with Minardi. Personally, I don't think Bryan Herta is talented enough to be a contender in F1, let alone in a backmarker Minardi. I don't believe the US has a driver that is talented enough to be a contender in F1. Take a look at Juan Pablo Montoya and Alex Zanardi. Those guys were clearly the most talented drivers racing in the US at the time they were here. They both made the move to F1 and didn't/haven't done so well there. I sincerely hope that Helio Castro Neves or Cristiano DaMatta get the chance to drive for Toyota next year in F1, but it would really pain me to see them as backmarkers, which they undoubtedly would be. The real problem with openwheel racing in the US is that we don't have a series that closely enough replicates F1. CART is the closest thing we have and the cars are a lot heavier and the engines are too different to be a real feeder series to F1. I hope Chris Pook is really serious about making CART into a feeder series to F1. He's the first guy that's been at the helm of CART that seems to have a clue about the way the world views racing. Unfortunately, sports in the US has been targetted to the US. I can remember being in France after I graduated high school and being asked by several people in Paris why we call it "The World Series" when we don't invite the world. That question sums up the problem with an American driver's chances in F1. Unfortunately, NASCAR is at the forefront of marketing the Winston Cup as the only form of real racing to the American public. I cringe every time I hear a commercial touting Winston Cup drivers as "the worlds best drivers" or "the world's fastest drivers." Um, hello!!! have they watched WRC? Have they heard of this guy named Michael Schumacher? Did they understand the reason CART cancelled the Texas Motor Speedway race last year? I have no problem with NASCAR races. The problem I have is with the way they bring their product to market.