Would you permanently cripple your 600 to ride in 1 class

[hitman5532]

You cant switch back and forth with the same bike read the proposed rule "4th Cylinder must be permanently disabled." So you can run only 1 class with the bike 450SB

If a bike qualifies for superbike, it should qualify for a formula class also (just by the logic structure). Plus, one could always bump up a class.

 

[scotinexcile]

Alan.
the bike Lohmeyer is on makes 70 rwhp on U4. 68 on pump. The bike Lilleland is on makes 62 or 63 on pump. Both bikes are still carrying the weight of a 600 (about 400#) and have 31 ft lb of torque. Both have stock engines with stock degreed cams, Leo Vince exhaust and a PCIII. Thats it.

There are MANY other bikes legal in the class putting out the same, and, definitely more power, in 450 (all at a substantially larger expense).

The bikes cost, including buying, is about $3500 ready to race. You can get on Craigs list and get parts. Modern chassis. Fuel injection. Nothing special, plug n play, affordable, competitive, reliable.
And as was mentioned, the mod is 100% reversible.

The ideas are:
1-- to introduce a bike that is both affordable and attainable to the average person, in order to put bikes on the grid in 450 SB (should it become legal, as the formula built sv500 already is) (FYI, Dorsey's 550 has same HP, more torque and weighs 270#).
2-- to make 450 the stepping stone class it should be, as well as entry level possible (the grey market bikes are hard to deal with), and also to make 450SB a good class to move laterally to.

Whats not to like?

The bike is currently legal in CL LW, F40 LW, and F4

How can the mod be reversible? When the proposed rule states "4th Cylinder must be permanently disabled." Is permanently only at a race weekend? How the hell are tech going to be able to "police" that?

The first 2 weekends at THill Lohmeyer was GONE in the 450SB races.

Was Lohmeyer running the bike in F40 Lightweight? If so lets take a look at the results(if he was not running the bike in the class ignore all below)

Rd 2 THill 5th with a 2:01 only bikes in front of him all SuperBike SV650's
Rd3 THIll 9th with a 2:03 8 of the 9 bikes in front of him SV650 Superbikes
Rd4 THill 8th with a 2:01 8 of the 8 bikes in front of him SV650 Superbikes
Rd5 Infineon 6th with a 1:52 5 of the bikes in front of him SV650 Superbikes
Rd6 THill 5th with a 2:01 3 of the bikes in front of him SV650 superbikes the other a Kawasaki 650 Bartlow was riding
Rd7 Infineon 5th 1:51 all SV superbikes in front of him
Rd8 THill 2:01 4th all SV superbikes in front of him

How is the performance of the bike against a built SV650 superbike not going to make it more than competitive in the 450SB class? You standard SV superbike is making anywhere between 80 - 90HP and the "3 cylinder" machine is still competitive against them? What hope do 450cc machines have against it?

 

[scotinexcile]

and Formula IV, clubman lightweight, and F40 lightweight, yes?

But would you run those classes knowing your bike was at a disadvantage?against the SV650 Superbikes

 

[scotinexcile]

Ah, didn't realize your objection was that people had to pour concrete into one of the cylinder bores! Good catch!

My main point is how do tech police it from race to race? How do you make it permanent by the wording of the rule AND make so it can be changed!!

 

[scotinexcile]

8 yes's so far, lets see how many turn up on the grid if the rule passes

 

[hitman5532]

But would you run those classes knowing your bike was at a disadvantage?against the SV650 Superbikes

maybe, I run up my bike at a disadvantage. I ran my 600 against 1000cc heavyweights until they ran both middleweight and heavy together. If they would let me jump up to open classes, I would do them.

 

[hitman5532]

My main point is how do tech police it from race to race? How do you make it permanent by the wording of the rule AND make so it can be changed!!

I agree

 

[synfinatic]

My main point is how do tech police it from race to race? How do you make it permanent by the wording of the rule AND make so it can be changed!!

Same way Tech polices everything else? You think someone is cheating, protest them. You don't even need to tear down their motor. Same way we police people running GSXR750's in the 600 classes.

Basically, the rule was intended to forbid someone from running a bike that could be both a 600 and 450 on the same day and then "forgetting" to disable a cylinder for the 450 race.

 

[Cycle61]

Basically, the rule was intended to forbid someone from running a bike that could be both a 600 and 450 on the same day and then "forgetting" to disable a cylinder for the 450 race.

Makes perfect sense this way. I'd say that having valves removed from the head and an exhaust port plugged in the collector is probably permanent enough for a race weekend. Hell, pull them in after the race and make sure there's only 3 spark plug wires connected.

 

[Pelon]

What would this do to those of use running 450 singles? A modified 450 thunper has around 50hp @ the wheel... This gives the 3of4 450/600 a 20hp advantage. I'm not saying I don't like the idea, I just want to to keep the 450SB class fair.

 

[kneedragon2000]

you will always be at a disadvantage with a single cylinder bike in a formula class allowing up to a certain displacement. Unless you are runnin a single class man expect to be underpower.

 

[afmotorsports]

Ok... so now we have a better explanation for the clearly biased and manipulative language of the poll. Really, why even pretend to run a poll when it's obviously only a veiled attack on the 450 Triples.

The first 2 weekends at THill Lohmeyer was GONE in the 450SB races.

It's the Indian, not the arrow. Mike Lohmeyer has countless wins in AFM races and holds several championship titles in the 450 Superbike class. If he wanted to really smoke everybody in that class, he would've been on his Honda VFR400 that makes substantially more power than the '450 Triple'. Mike's 450 is not quite as developed as Mark Elrod but we're still all friends in the G-Force garage and I bet Elrod would let Lohmeyer run that bike if the goal was to just destroy the 450 class. Have you seen the bike? It was in Cycle World as one of the 'World's Coolest Bikes':

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/23/micro-gp-honda-nc450v-worlds-coolest-bikes/

Was Lohmeyer running the bike in F40 Lightweight? If so lets take a look at the results(if he was not running the bike in the class ignore all below)

Rd 2 THill 5th with a 2:01 only bikes in front of him all SuperBike SV650's
Rd3 THIll 9th with a 2:03 8 of the 9 bikes in front of him SV650 Superbikes
Rd4 THill 8th with a 2:01 8 of the 8 bikes in front of him SV650 Superbikes
Rd5 Infineon 6th with a 1:52 5 of the bikes in front of him SV650 Superbikes
Rd6 THill 5th with a 2:01 3 of the bikes in front of him SV650 superbikes the other a Kawasaki 650 Bartlow was riding
Rd7 Infineon 5th 1:51 all SV superbikes in front of him
Rd8 THill 2:01 4th all SV superbikes in front of him

If Mike was on his much faster Honda that is already legal for those classes, these laptimes would be nothing more than 'parade laps'. He is an experienced, skilled racer perfectly capable of running top 3 in Formula 4 (ask Sewell and others who have been around for a while). Worried about 1:52s at Sears Point? Stock SVs in 650 Production did 1:47s this year and even 4 years ago Raff and I did 1:48s with bone stock SV engines. Bone stock! Ask Zoran, he saw the inside of my engine after Ducky blew it up.

How is the performance of the bike against a built SV650 superbike not going to make it more than competitive in the 450SB class? You standard SV superbike is making anywhere between 80 - 90HP and the "3 cylinder" machine is still competitive against them? What hope do 450cc machines have against it?

450 Triple is not even close to performance numbers of SV650 superbikes. I think there are dyno charts already floating on the web or you can ask Lohmeyer or Wallis to give you a copy of their dyno charts. You will be unimpressed. The bike is not a 'SV-killer' by any stretch of the imagination. As far as policing it, I believe the dead cylinder doesn't have a spark plug and/or spark plug wire, not to mention it would be very obvious on the straights if a rider had an extra 30-40hp.

There's no reason to be an alarmist on this topic, I think you might be just poorly informed about what these 450 Triples really are. Considering these bikes are less than half the price of a built SV superbike, they are such an incredible bargain. The frames start out much better than the poor SV commuter bike, the swingarms are superior - you're basically getting an awesome 600 sportbike with the power of a Prod-legal SV for the price of a Ninja 250! 450 Triple has all the benefits of a modern 600, without the big horsepower. It's a brilliant idea, maybe you should get one too.

 

[#1 tuner]

Simple solution exists for post race tech...grab an infrared temperature gun and shoot the exhaust headers. Three will be within degrees of each other & the fourth will not. Unless somebody was smart enough to make it disable with an onboard switch.

 

[kneedragon2000]

That would be pretty rad if they could pull that off Billy! I would like to see how it would be done. Sort of F1 type of stuff!

 

[Pelon]

Simple solution exists for post race tech...grab an infrared temperature gun and shoot the exhaust headers. Three will be within degrees of each other & the fourth will not. Unless somebody was smart enough to make it disable with an onboard switch.

Wouldn't checking for 3 plug wires as the bikes exit the track accomplish the same thing?

 

[scotinexcile]

Ok... so now we have a better explanation for the clearly biased and manipulative language of the poll. Really, why even pretend to run a poll when it's obviously only a veiled attack on the 450 Triples.



It's the Indian, not the arrow. Mike Lohmeyer has countless wins in AFM races and holds several championship titles in the 450 Superbike class. If he wanted to really smoke everybody in that class, he would've been on his Honda VFR400 that makes substantially more power than the '450 Triple'. Mike's 450 is not quite as developed as Mark Elrod but we're still all friends in the G-Force garage and I bet Elrod would let Lohmeyer run that bike if the goal was to just destroy the 450 class. Have you seen the bike? It was in Cycle World as one of the 'World's Coolest Bikes':

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/23/micro-gp-honda-nc450v-worlds-coolest-bikes/




If Mike was on his much faster Honda that is already legal for those classes, these laptimes would be nothing more than 'parade laps'. He is an experienced, skilled racer perfectly capable of running top 3 in Formula 4 (ask Sewell and others who have been around for a while). Worried about 1:52s at Sears Point? Stock SVs in 650 Production did 1:47s this year and even 4 years ago Raff and I did 1:48s with bone stock SV engines. Bone stock! Ask Zoran, he saw the inside of my engine after Ducky blew it up.



450 Triple is not even close to performance numbers of SV650 superbikes. I think there are dyno charts already floating on the web or you can ask Lohmeyer or Wallis to give you a copy of their dyno charts. You will be unimpressed. The bike is not a 'SV-killer' by any stretch of the imagination. As far as policing it, I believe the dead cylinder doesn't have a spark plug and/or spark plug wire, not to mention it would be very obvious on the straights if a rider had an extra 30-40hp.

There's no reason to be an alarmist on this topic, I think you might be just poorly informed about what these 450 Triples really are. Considering these bikes are less than half the price of a built SV superbike, they are such an incredible bargain. The frames start out much better than the poor SV commuter bike, the swingarms are superior - you're basically getting an awesome 600 sportbike with the power of a Prod-legal SV for the price of a Ninja 250! 450 Triple has all the benefits of a modern 600, without the big horsepower. It's a brilliant idea, maybe you should get one too.

Biased and manipulative language!!! Biased maybe but how is Yes or No manipulative? Look at the language of the rule proposal, it say PERMANENT, dictionary definition:

permanent [ˈpɜːmənənt]
adj
1. existing or intended to exist for an indefinite period a permanent structure
2. not expected to change for an indefinite time; not temporary a permanent condition
[from Latin permanens continuing, from permanēre to stay to the end, from per- through + manēre to remain]
permanently adv

So if you took your 600 and made it legal for the class as per the proposed rule it would be a "crippled" 600?

If the rule gets past I may get one but as Zoran says why would you not take a 2012 R6 and do the same thing?

 

[afm199]

Simple solution exists for post race tech...grab an infrared temperature gun and shoot the exhaust headers. Three will be within degrees of each other & the fourth will not. Unless somebody was smart enough to make it disable with an onboard switch.

or spray water on them.

 

[machete]

or permanently cripple them.

 

[IBYS]

What would this do to those of use running 450 singles? A modified 450 thunper has around 50hp @ the wheel... This gives the 3of4 450/600 a 20hp advantage. I'm not saying I don't like the idea, I just want to to keep the 450SB class fair.

The 450 single is already at a disadvantage in 450SB. Singles get a displacement advantage allowing them to run down a class and be built to formula rules.

I feel a 450 singles primary classes are 250sb and formula singles. Other classes are (450sb and fIV) are quite a bit faster.

I like the 3/4 600 (450) idea. Bike will be competitive in 450sb and given some development could compete in fIV. SVs are no longer produced. Singles can run in fIV as well but currently are not competitive.

 

[afmotorsports]

Biased and manipulative language!!! Biased maybe but how is Yes or No manipulative?.....So if you took your 600 and made it legal for the class as per the proposed rule it would be a "crippled" 600?

Alan... we're not stupid. "Crippled" has completely different connotations than "modified", let's not be coy.

If the rule gets past I may get one but as Zoran says why would you not take a 2012 R6 and do the same thing?

I know this may be a shock to you (and especially to him! ) but Zoran is wrong (it even says so in the WERA rulebook and Zoran will tell you they're NEVER wrong! ) The 450 Superbike and Formula 4 rules already allow for Mark's $45,000 Honda that would murder the class with a top rider at the controls. The AMA Pro season just ended so if you really had money to burn you could pick up a 2012 AMA bike for less than $15K, get Patrick Ho to turn it into a '450 Triple' and you would have a top-of-the line bike for the class. I seriously doubt anybody will do that, the goal is to have most people pick up a cheap, slightly outdated 600 and give it a second life as a 450 Triple. As an aside, we already saw a modified Ducati in Formula 4 this year, I think everybody knows that's not exactly a 'budget bike' either.

Spend some time in the classifieds and look for all the 600cc trackbikes that are sold for $2,500-4,500 because they're one or two generations old. Now imagine you buy one of those, spend another ~$1,500 to have it "modified" (not "crippled", be nice!) and you have a kickass, turn-key racebike for 450 Superbike and Formula 4. What's there not to like?? People spend over $4,000 on a Ninja 250 racebike, who wouldn't want a 450 Triple for possibly less money? Like I said before, I think the idea is brilliant and certainly has the potential to attract more new racers into the club who don't necessarily want to ride an anemic Ninjette but also don't want to jump on a fire breathing 600 and crash their brains out. You can have a lot of fun on a well-handling 65-75hp racebike that's not ready to spit you off like a 100-120+hp 600.