Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

[Alexey]

If the suspension is closer to vertical, it is compressed less by the cornering forces and therefore leaves more for dealing with bumps (kxmike more or less said that, but I figured I'd rephrase it).

 

[Keith Code]

pick up technique

• If a rider hangs off too far, he may loose his footing on the outside peg of the bike. The outside peg is the rider's main pivot point for moving the body on and off the motorcycle.
• If the rider is still at an extreme lean angle and he hangs off too far, his leathers will begin to drag along the road.
• If he hangs off too far (especially at shallow lean angles) centrifugal force may not be strong enough to keep the rider firmly planted on the bike. This may cause the rider to inadvertently manipulate the controls, or shift his weight in such a way as to upset the suspension.
• Hanging off too far may place the arms at a sub-optimal position for maximum leverage against the bars.
• Hanging off too far may make it difficult to quickly stand the bike back up, slowing the drive or spoiling entry into the next turn.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Burning1,

Nice list you got there. I agree on some of the points, some not but let's just short cut to the chase and most of what you have listed will be covered:

If the rider's position is awkward and he becomes unstable on the bike it will in turn create stability situations with the bike. The further off the rider goes the more likely he will be to misuse the handlebars--too much muscle going to the bars in the turn when none is needed.

Good point on it being more difficult to quick flick the bike but that, in the end, is a stability issue as well.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

pick up technique

attempt #2 for the contest...
1. to get earlier drive
2. better suspension compliance over rough pavement
3. to hold line when running out of traction
4. to help deal with set up/tire problems (chatter/loss of traction)
5. to help avoid bike contact with another rider (on inside) while still maintaining throttle/line.

kxmike,

Yes on #1 not necessarily yes on #2. Since we are including a better, more aggressive drive off the turn it is good to keep in mind what the suspension is already doing, rising at both ends and the rear becomes less compliant. In other situations (slippery) I'd agree and it's been brought up here. #3 is warm. #4 isn't workable to the best of my knowledge and experience. #5 I like, it is a reapplication of the concept applied to a specific situation.

Someone is going to get it, I can feel it.

Keith

 

[Z3n]

kxmike,

Yes on #1 not necessarily yes on #2. Since we are including a better, more aggressive drive off the turn it is good to keep in mind what the suspension is already doing, rising at both ends and the rear becomes less compliant. In other situations (slippery) I'd agree and it's been brought up here. #3 is warm. #4 isn't workable to the best of my knowledge and experience. #5 I like, it is a reapplication of the concept applied to a specific situation.

Someone is going to get it, I can feel it.

Keith

Can you "pick up" the bike before corner entrance to prepare to "flick it to your knee"?

Or, alternatively, use it midcorner to stand the bike up a bit and prevent early apex?

 

[Burning1]

kxmike,

Yes on #1 not necessarily yes on #2. Since we are including a better, more aggressive drive off the turn it is good to keep in mind what the suspension is already doing, rising at both ends and the rear becomes less compliant. In other situations (slippery) I'd agree and it's been brought up here. #3 is warm. #4 isn't workable to the best of my knowledge and experience. #5 I like, it is a reapplication of the concept applied to a specific situation.

Someone is going to get it, I can feel it.

Keith

On #3: "to hold line when running out of traction."

Since the turning radius of a motorcycle is based on the combined center of gravity of the rider and of the motorcycle, wouldn't hanging off further allow the rider to maintain a constant radius turn as he or she gently accelerates through a corner?

If so, this would allow a rider to maintain an ideal 40/60 weight balance using the throttle while keeping the bike on line, without having to make any steering corrections.

 

[Z3n]

On #3: "to hold line when running out of traction."

Since the turning radius of a motorcycle is based on the combined center of gravity of the rider and of the motorcycle, wouldn't hanging off further allow the rider to maintain a constant radius turn as he or she gently accelerates through a corner?

If so, this would allow a rider to maintain an ideal 40/60 weight balance using the throttle while keeping the bike on line, without having to make any steering corrections.

Damn, i think i've been bested! to you.

 

[Lovedoc]

1) Increase size of contact patch, allowing earlier throttle application out of turns

2) allow cornering in wet or gravelly conditions, without leaning so much

3) Decrease wear on sides of tire, I believe the WERA example of tires ground to a V was used in class.

4) to restore suspension to the vertical plane where the travel is greater and it functions better.

5) occasionally useful for sudden direction changes while leaning over, avoiding debris etc.

 

[Burning1]

A couple of other random thoughts...

• Picking the bike up should slightly lower the engine speed, due to the larger diameter the center of the tire.
• Hanging off will help shift the combined center of gravity of the rider and bike further over the contact patch.
• At extreme lean angles on street tires, the bike is often riding past the edge of the tire. Hanging off further and straightening the bike might place more rubber on the road.

I also wonder if there are any advantages or disadvantages to riding with the contact patch under the sidewall of the tire.

Damn, i think i've been bested! to you.

It only counts if I can do it at the track.

 

[Lazerus]

Hi Lazerus,

A couple of points on your post. Turn 8 at T-Hill is a very dangerous place to pass since it is the fastest turn and people generally use the whole track in any group. Even if you had got by the person they might have been spooked and straightened it up which could lead to a 100mph + off track crash. It has happened and resulted in helicopter trips. Most trackday organizers say not to pass there during the briefing.

Regarding not passing on the inside the rest of the day - that is a bit of an over-correction. Passing on the inside done right - and not taking away the apex from someone else is very often accomplished safely on other turns like 2,3,9,10,14.

Thank you for the tips, and I agree whole heartedly that most folks (including myself) use up the majority of the track due to the high speeds. Given that, when planning a pass on most riders, that is not the turn that I set up them up for. The exception was this rider. I had been observing his line through that corner for a few laps. It was a pattern of thiers to stay away from the inside, thus I picked that as an opportunity for a hassle free pass, in a relatively non technical portion of the track. If I hadn't thought it was a safe time, I wouldn't have started the pass. However, as I am sure you know, not everyone holds predictable lines at trackdays. I understand that ultimately, this close encounter was a result of my attempt to pass. For this very reason, I never ride at 100% of my abilities. I know that I am just as capable, if not more capable than the next man, to make an error while riding. I leave myself a margin of error, which allowed me to hold my line, and decrease my speed, thus avoiding an accident.

As far as changing my passing for the rest of the day:

I chose to go around the outside for a few reasons. One, I could set up the pass in a way that does not rely on the TIMING of the other rider. We all know that some people nail thier apexes, some blow them, some do them late, others early. Many people cant hit the same marks every time, and this is a liablity. My solution was this. Allow them to gap me before the corner entrance, while following thier line. As they brake, I brake less, closing the distance and carrying greater speed. As they dive in for thier apex, early, late, or otherwise, I basically let them turn OUT of my way. I take this opportunity to accelerate around them with the security that they have no intention of moving outside, and knowing that they are carrying less speed and are unlikely to slide into me. A guy at one of my last trackdays had a camera on his zx10r, and actually caught me on film doing this to him in turn two at thill.

Here is the link. I appear from the right side of the screen at around 8:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KeB8N6RfrI

 

[ktmle]

My first post, no avatar yet.

Using the pick up technique can be used to:

1. use more throttle earlier in the turn
2. maintain a line when the corner goes off camber
3. reduce wear on the sides of the tire
4. traverse a low traction area (oil, water, bump) in the corner
5. change the effective gearing on the exit of the turn

I have been through level 3 and I am embarrassed that I am not sure these are the 5 examples you are looking for. Honest, I really was paying attention in class, but it has been a few months.

Rick

 

[Lazerus]

1)Get the tire upright sooner on corner exit to allow earlier and harder accleration
2)Get the tire upright to help smoothly regain traction in the event of a slide
3)Reduce lean angle while transversing slippery surfaces
4)Prevent a slide out if you begin to drag hard parts due to too much lean angle
5)Get the bike upright to allow application of brakes in a dual apex, or decreasing radius corner

"Here it is: There are a total of 5 applications for the riding technique known as the "Pick Up" loosely described as pushing the bike up and away (towards vertical) from the rider.

A set of Dunlop Qualifiers to the first person who gets all five. Superbike School Level II students, who have done the drill, are included (you aren't cheating it is a memory test)."

 

[Z3n]

1)Get the tire upright sooner on corner exit to allow earlier and harder accleration
2)Get the tire upright to help smoothly regain traction in the event of a slide
3)Reduce lean angle while transversing slippery surfaces
4)Save a slide out if you begin to drag hard parts due to too much lean angle
5)Get the bike upright to allow application of brakes in a dual apex, or decreasing radius corner

"Here it is: There are a total of 5 applications for the riding technique known as the "Pick Up" loosely described as pushing the bike up and away (towards vertical) from the rider.

A set of Dunlop Qualifiers to the first person who gets all five. Superbike School Level II students, who have done the drill, are included (you aren't cheating it is a memory test)."

Aren't 2 and 4 the same thing?

 

[Lazerus]

No, dragging hard parts of the bike (pegs, exhaust etc) is often times an early indicator that a slide is imminent. (4) I wrote "save" a slide. I meant prevent a slide. here, it's edited. 2, on the other hand, is written as a way to control a slide which is already occuring, without chopping the throttle and possibly creating a highside

 

[kxmike]

No, dragging hard parts of the bike (pegs, exhaust etc) is often times an early indicator that a slide is imminent. (4) I wrote "save" a slide. I meant prevent a slide. here, it's edited. 2, on the other hand, is written as a way to control a slide which is already occuring, without chopping the throttle and possibly creating a highside

I don't think that would apply to this technique because what we're talking about is picking the bike up early on corner exit. Dragging hard parts would happen before that.

 

[Lazerus]

"Here it is: There are a total of 5 applications for the riding technique known as the "Pick Up" loosely described as pushing the bike up and away (towards vertical) from the rider."

Its doesn't say give me five reasons to pick up the bike on corner exit. It say's there are a total of five applications for the technique.

 

[kxmike]

Using the pick up technique can be used to:

1. use more throttle earlier in the turn
2. maintain a line when the corner goes off camber
3. reduce wear on the sides of the tire
4. traverse a low traction area (oil, water, bump) in the corner
5. change the effective gearing on the exit of the turn



Rick

That sounds pretty good to me

 

[kxmike]

What was that technique?

Consciously pushing the bike back into a more upright position (more on the center of the tire, while minimizing lean), while still finishing off the last (approx. 10%) portion of the turn. Gary J

Qoute from Gary J that got us on this topic.

 

[Lazerus]

I definately think that is a hell of a list. The only one that I wouldnt agree with is number 5. Getting on to the center of the tire would create "taller" gearing, which is actually less mechanical advantage. On the exit of a turn, it is all about acceleration, and shorter gears = better drive. I'm no physics major, but I'm pretty sure that the smaller rolling circumferance of the side of the tire creates shorter gearing.

 

[Lazerus]

Qoute from Gary J that got us on this topic.

Gary J isn't the one offering free rubber

 

[kxmike]

I definately think that is a hell of a list. The only one that I wouldnt agree with is number 5. Getting on to the center of the tire would create "taller" gearing, which is actually less mechanical advantage. On the exit of a turn, it is all about acceleration, and shorter gears = better drive. I'm no physics major, but I'm pretty sure that the smaller rolling circumferance of the side of the tire creates shorter gearing.

Your right about the effect it has but there are times when taller gearing might work better.
to prevent a wheelie or tire spin, or to carry a little more speed without having to shift.