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Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

I believe a decade ago the F1 experienced a controversy about a preprogrammed auto-shifting system that takes away the need for timing and selection of gears for each turn. I have always thought that using this auto-system takes away the challenge and skill that we admired from such racers. I feel the same way with this topic.
 
Whatever else you can say about TC systems, they make it more difficult to compare the heroes of today to the heroes of the past. As machinery gets better that's going to happen anyway; a technological advance diminishes or eliminates some problem that riders had to ride around. Some of these changes merely remove annoyances, while others fundamentally change the game. I suspect TC systems are game changing, though I have not ridden with one...
 
OK, I do think this goes too far. The bike senses track position based on gps coordinates and adjusts fuel mapping or whatever for that specific turn, rider input=zero. How is that gonna trickle down, bootleg Dynojet maps for nine?

A sport like racing needs to strike a balance between being a high carnage gladiatorial event and a boring technical parade. The riders should have a shot at a long career without terrible injuries same as any other working guy.

Any evidence that traction control is affecting the number or type of crashes, maybe fewer highsides?
 
Lovedoc said:
Any evidence that traction control is affecting the number or type of crashes, maybe fewer highsides?
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I believe we're already seeing that. The way 990's were ridden and how often they crashed on their way out was nothing like what they were when initially introduced. In that time frame, the TC was really starting to be perfected and we went from seeing them crossed up on engine braking as well as under power with highsides only a little less of an occurrence as compared to the 500's, to suddenly the bikes riding with wheels in line and highsides almost an anomaly. Maybe it's a little less spectacular to see now, but I don't care about the danger of the sport (a few high speed get-offs will do that). Skill is another subject, I think best described as transitioning rather than being diminished by TC. Actually, the danger aspect is kinda funny, when you think about Dani Pedrosa riding to finish on the podium with a busted hand just now at Qatar and with a shattered knee 2 years ago.
 
Lovedoc said:
A sport like racing needs to strike a balance between being a high carnage gladiatorial event and a boring technical parade. The riders should have a shot at a long career without terrible injuries same as any other working guy.
Click to expand...

A co-worker of mine asked if I'm into F1 car racing. I replied, "Nah, if you can't fall off of it, I'm not interested."

That's by no means literally true. However, the potential danger in a sport, for me, separates it from video games or pastimes. Being able to perform at a high level in the face of real consequences takes boldness that doesn't grow on trees and is special.

Traction control certainly hasn't removed all danger from racing motorcycles. It's just changed where the primary dangers lie; now, instead of worrying so much about highsiding themselves, riders can worry more about getting asspacked by Pedrosa! :teeth
 
Keith Code said:
I was just wondering what you all think of traction control.

Here's my question:

Does the fact that a Moto GP rider can pin the throttle, at practically any lean angle, reduce the mystique for you of riding a 240 bhp motorcycle that weights 325 lb?

I'm writing an article about it and I've surveyed riders at the school but was curious about how BARFERS felt about it.

Keith
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As some have mentioned F1 has been fighting traction control of some manner for about 15 years and I think it ruined the "sport" of racing. It became more of a numbers and technical game vs man and machine vs another man and machine. He who had the best devices wins the race.
This year due to I think FIA seeing the problem with it has now a generic traction control given out. And if you watched the first race you can visibly see the difference the race is back in the drivers hands.

Traction control on a motorcycle is to me even worse part of riding is the absolute connection you have with the machine- and to take that away and let a computer think for you takes away a huge amount of risk and then it becomes less of man and machine but more machine watching over man. This will end up yielding worse racing and the teams with the most $$$$ will always dominate.

NASCAR and ALMS I hate to say it has it right keep the playing field as close as you can to create a SPORT : not a boring parade of really fast vehicles running around asphault for an hour.

Bottom line is put the race back into the racers skills nerves and experience not the microprocessor.

(ps what part of the vehicle in the 90 was not allowed to create aerodynamic downforce- this was actually apart of the whole traction control issue. I remember reading about it and was amazed: here is some help and kieth it goes with your article somewhat http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519704.200-may-the-best-driver-win.html)
 
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TC diminishes the art of going fast.

To me, TC diminishes the art of going fast. I believe that art of any kind is all about restraint. The restraint to use the least amount of energy or material needed to reach the objective. Anyone with the resources can overpower most any objective but the result is not always rewarding to watch. Most all great sportsmen have more than enough desire and physical power to win at their chosen sport. It is those that use that power with restraint and scalpel sharp precision that inspire me.

Rick
 
I should add that I do not mean to imply that the riders are not using their abilities to the utmost now that they have traction control. I am sure that they are still using all of the physical, mental and artistic ability they can muster to go as fast as possible. But with traction control, it is much more difficult for me to see, and therefore appreciate that ability. Perhaps I need to become a more sophisticated spectator now.

Rick
 
traction control

Rossi called Casey Stoner, "The best of the traction control generation riders". He also said he didn't like it because his right wrist was the key to his success and without traction control that is exactly how you win or lose races. It annoys me that the outcome of a race is in the hands of the geek with the laptop setting the traction control parameters or an electronics engineer coming up with better sensing devices.

At the Phillip Island GP last year it rained and you could hear Stoner running the bike wide open and also hear the traction control rev limiter. The old school riders were using throttle control and not going as fast, I suppose they either didn't trust the TC or their TC setup wasn't as good as Stoner's.

By skill and craft a good rider can often ride past the point his tires are going off but with TC the connection between the rider and the tires is severed and sense of traction is a huge part of the skill of riding.

Keith
 
Stoner didn't grow up with TC, though he has adapted to it nicely. I think it's these new-age kids who were playing with computers and video games before they could walk or talk. Unbelievable hand-eye coordination, and an innate trust of computers I never had when playing Pong on the floor-model Magnavox back in '77.

Those top-tier racers that aren't adapting are getting left behind. They've rode a certain way their entire life, hard to change that. Motorcycle riding in general is never stagnant, I see TC as just another step on the technological ladder. It's always been a parade of constantly improving frames, forks, brakes, swingarms, lighter wheels, stickier tires, better OEM suspension....progress just never stops.
 
I consider MotoGP to be a "money is no object" approach to motorcycle racing and expect to see almost unimaginable technogy put to use in each race. For example, I think Michelin wanted a mobile tire making machine that was going to create the "perfect" tire on race day based on all their computer statistics for that day and track.

Traction control is a natural progression to the technological improvements on MotoGP bikes. But, as a spectator, I think it really has reduced the spectacle and excitement of watching the races. I no longer worry that they are flirting with disaster on every turn and watch for any hint of an impending slide/highside. Traction control removes some of the percieved "heroics" involved in watching our heros do the impossible. How much was rider and how much was machine? On a non-traction controlled bike, I have some idea because I know what "out of control" feels like and the sense of danger associated with pushing the bike to my limits without electronic assistance. Without TC, you can see that the bike is flirting with the ragged edge of traction and you know that the racer is the key element that's keeping that bike from crashing.

As a track rider, how do I emulate my heros when I can watch and hear them go WFO at full lean & the electronics & regulate the slide? How do I learn from that?

When it's down to a split second from getting 1st place on the last turn of the last lap, I want to be rooting for the rider, not his programmer.
 
traction control

redline said:
As a track rider, how do I emulate my heros when I can watch and hear them go WFO at full lean & the electronics & regulate the slide? How do I learn from that?

When it's down to a split second from getting 1st place on the last turn of the last lap, I want to be rooting for the rider, not his programmer.
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Those are my personal sentiments as well. No matter how hard I try there isn't any way for me to bend my reality enough to make TC a techno plus in racing.

Having said that I do have to acknowledge the fact that it has made other aspects of riding more important. Handling lines and lean angle has become more critical for riders. Anything that enables the pilot to get the bike up out of the corner allows for the power to get to the ground and move forward faster. Suspension settings have always been important but now are even more critical because you have to get the rear to hook up to prevent wheel spin and TC intervention. But it still seems like a video game compared to rider sensitivity and judgment.

Keith
 
Keith,

I've read Twist Of The Wrist II many times and have been a fan of the book for awhile now. I've been a trackday only rider for the past 3 years(just started round 3) Previously I mainly rode my 01 Honda F4I, in fact it was my very first motorcycle ever and all I ever rode on the track(besides a few of my friends bikes here and there). Last year on my F4I I was around 2:07 @ T-hill and around 1:55 @ Infineon(best laps not necessarily consistent times). As a little background info I had my F4I's suspension geometry setup with a lot of Rake which made it steer effortlessly. It is a very twitchy bike but due to the nature of its geometry it made it very very easy, in fact I would even say necessary to late apex. If I didn't take a very deep late apex line, the bike would steer to the apex so quickly that I would end up early apexing so I adopted this whole late apex, quick turn strategy. Having a bike like this really helped me identify with many of the techniques that you described in your book.

What I didn't realize is that when I stepped up to my new trackbike things would change drastically. I recently bought a 05 Honda 600RR and its a great bike. The problem is that it feels completely opposite. IT steers like a friggin tank, yes its stable midcorner like no other bike I've ever ridden but getting it to initiate turn-in, and leaning it, and reaching the apex is very difficult for me. So far I'd done 4 trackdays this year(Infineon, T-hill, and Buttonwillow) and I'm just having a really hard time.

No longer can I change my line midcorner or have complete control of the bike with the push of the bars. On this bike If I pick the wrong line there is no margin for error. No matter how much body steering I use the bike just does not lean very easily and even worse does not want to change its direction without using a lot of time. I've been trying to slow down, set my entry speed, and concentrate on steering the bike quickly yet still keep my same lines which are a late apex followed by a strong drive. Its just not working, it seems I have to "arc" this bike into the turn, it just takes a lot more time to get the bike down to the ground and leaned over. I immediately realized I had to start turning in early to reach my apex to avoid running wide out of the turn (by missing the apex completely)

I have been playing with the suspension, geometry, and many other factors which are helping, but I feel that this bike no matter what I do is not adapting to this style of riding. In fact I'm starting to feel that part of the key is to start needing to traibrake more to get the frontend to dive and reduce the trail to turn quicker and as well scrub speed to make sure the bike gets down to that apex. Saying that, I do recognize that you can't do that on every turn, and there will still be turns where I need to let off the brake and just use my body/arms to try and snap the bike over.

So what do you recommend? Do you feel that certain types of bike require different styles of riding? I'm gonna take a big fat guess and assume that you might recommend possibly going even slower till I can achieve the correct supsension setup combined with the correct steering technique until I can ride it like my ole F4I. Maybe I just need to keep trying but its really not working for me. HElp!
 
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Gettin it turned

Yody said:
Keith,

I've read Twist Of The Wrist II many times and have been a fan of the book for awhile now. I've been a trackday only rider for the past 3 years(just started round 3) Previously I mainly rode my 01 Honda F4I, in fact it was my very first motorcycle ever and all I ever rode on the track(besides a few of my friends bikes here and there). Last year on my F4I I was around 2:07 @ T-hill and around 1:55 @ Infineon(best laps not necessarily consistent times). As a little background info I had my F4I's suspension geometry setup with a lot of Rake which made it steer effortlessly. It is a very twitchy bike but due to the nature of its geometry it made it very very easy, in fact I would even say necessary to late apex. If I didn't take a very deep late apex line, the bike would steer to the apex so quickly that I would end up early apexing so I adopted this whole late apex, quick turn strategy. Having a bike like this really helped me identify with many of the techniques that you described in your book.

What I didn't realize is that when I stepped up to my new trackbike things would change drastically. I recently bought a 05 Honda 600RR and its a great bike. The problem is that it feels completely opposite. IT steers like a friggin tank, yes its stable midcorner like no other bike I've ever ridden but getting it to initiate turn-in, and leaning it, and reaching the apex is very difficult for me. So far I'd done 4 trackdays this year(Infineon, T-hill, and Buttonwillow) and I'm just having a really hard time.

No longer can I change my line midcorner or have complete control of the bike with the push of the bars. On this bike If I pick the wrong line there is no margin for error. No matter how much body steering I use the bike just does not lean very easily and even worse does not want to change its direction without using a lot of time. I've been trying to slow down, set my entry speed, and concentrate on steering the bike quickly yet still keep my same lines which are a late apex followed by a strong drive. Its just not working, it seems I have to "arc" this bike into the turn, it just takes a lot more time to get the bike down to the ground and leaned over. I immediately realized I had to start turning in early to reach my apex to avoid running wide out of the turn (by missing the apex completely)

I have been playing with the suspension, geometry, and many other factors which are helping, but I feel that this bike no matter what I do is not adapting to this style of riding. In fact I'm starting to feel that part of the key is to start needing to traibrake more to get the frontend to dive and reduce the trail to turn quicker and as well scrub speed to make sure the bike gets down to that apex. Saying that, I do recognize that you can't do that on every turn, and there will still be turns where I need to let off the brake and just use my body/arms to try and snap the bike over.

So what do you recommend? Do you feel that certain types of bike require different styles of riding? I'm gonna take a big fat guess and assume that you might recommend possibly going even slower till I can achieve the correct supsension setup combined with the correct steering technique until I can ride it like my ole F4I. Maybe I just need to keep trying but its really not working for me. HElp!
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Yody,

You aren't the first person to run into this situation. You can try the simple fixes like lowering the front of the bike, raising the rear, adding more rebound in the front or adding rear compression, shorten the wheelbase with a different countershft/ rear sprocket and chain combo.

Get your spring sag set first, that will give you an idea of whether or not the front is too stiff, holding the front up too high and then recheck it if you change the front or rear ride height/weight bias.

Personally I'd talk to some of the Bay Area suspension guys and find out what they know about the bike and how to quicken up the steering without sacrificing too much stability and rear grip.

Lots of riders approach it by making the above adjustments until the bike becomes unstable or loses rear grip and then back it off. I've used that method myself but I'm not a suspension expert.

There isn't anything wrong with changing your riding style to suit the bike if you have to but I wouldn't get too hasty until I'd exhausted the common approaches to the problem.

Keith
 
Thanks, thats exactly what I'm in the middle of right now; trying to work the bike to make it work better for me. Thanks for the help, on the positive side I feel that riding this bike is making me develop a new set of skills, feel, and knowledge that I would of never known about even if it doesn't suit me the best. Helps me understand why/how other riders ride the way they do as well :thumbup
 
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Keith Code said:
No worries bikerdr,

Ya Karel went quick but it was Leon Camier in December 2006. We were running the long version of turn 7 at Sears Point which adds, conservatively, 2 1/2 seconds to the lap. Leon went 1:42 and change on a bone stock ZX6R with Dunlop Qualifiers, with student traffic.

Karel Abraham is another of our international students and wound up 8th in the 250 testing at Jerez last week on his Moto GP 250.

The Qualifiers work great in the right hands and with the correct tire pressure. A pound or two over and they spin very predictably, lay down nice darkies but that doesn't improve lap times. 28 or 29 in the rear seems to work great.

Would they work for a national Supersport race? NO, it is a street tire. On the other hand, riders wishing to gain more experience with spinning the rear tire on 600 size bikes will make quick progress in better understanding traction.

Keith
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Wow. Sounds like the next Anthony Gobert! Will he be on the AMA circuit soon? Running that time on stock bikes with street tires, Pole would be easy on a tuned bike with race tires!
 
From the MSF I've learned countersteering as push right go right. How long are you suppose to push before you turn the wheel the way you want to go. In other words, how long are you suppose to be countersteering during a turn? Is it just to initiate the turn?
 
From what I understand from taking Keith's course, you want to quick turn so it's a quick input to get the bike to the lean angle you want to take for that corner and then that's it. Once the bike is leaned it wants to stay there so there's really minimal to no input required once you get it where you want it (except the occasional need for corrections while in the corner).

Corrections on my statement above are welcome.:nerd

:Port
 
Keith- new tangent.

What is your recommendation to reduce the motorcycle crash rate in the bay area?

Thanks!
 
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