Slow speed practice, no experts please

[Enchanter]

It would be interesting to know if the motorcycle safety people had anything to say about figure 8s besides turning your head.

It depends on the goal of the rider (just turning or attempting to do the smallest figure 8 possible. The techniques would be slightly different.

All my turns are at 30 mph and below. At those speeds I feel more secure counter balancing to get the lean angle rather than counter steering.

Your understanding of counter steering is weak. If you are riding the motorcycle, and you have gotten it to change direction, counter steering has occurred whether you felt it or not. At lower speeds it is darn near imperceptible, especially to new riders.

Counter balancing can be used when turning a motorcycle, but it doesn't make the motorcycle turn. In fact, counter balancing can be done without turning.

The turn-your-head mantra is the only thing the Motorcycle Experts will say about slow speed turning.

Um, no. No it isn't. There is much more to turning than that, and students are taught more than that.

I suspect the rule is over simplified (similar to the push-right-go-right slogan).

No, not really. You suspect there is more to it than that because you are self taught and distrust the experts.

In the parking lot I get the best accuracy with lean angles when my eyes are where ever they get the best visual reference.

And herein lies the problem with your parking lot repetition. You are concentrating on leaning, rather than getting the bigger picture.

On the street it's got to be important to be able to lean the bike regardless of visual references because there's traffic and it's wise to be capabable of looking around independent of what the bike is doing. Then there must times when the look-where-you-want-to-go slogan is paramount.

Looking where you want to go is paramount everytime you ride a motorcycle, especially on the street. If you took the time to allow an expert watch and coach you, they would be able to redirect your focus (and learning) to more useful and practical skills for survival. These experts would be able to analyze you skills and more easily assist you to attain your goal of learning how to ride.

Based on the reading I've done so far the human balance system maintains orientation with three systems, the inner ear (vestibular), visual references, and tactile feed back. The balance system is most effective when all three are working together but balance can be maintained with two of the three.

Finally something we can agree on.

When eyes are being used for something besides spacial orientation, like looking far ahead, or looking behind, the other two systems have to monitor lean angle and that takes practice.

Again, you are concentrating way too much on lean angle. Just turn the bike. Decide where you want to go, and make the motorcycle get there. I seriously suspect that your focus on lean angle is due to your desire to self learn w/o input from experts, combined with riding a dirtbike, with knobbies, on a paved surface.

That seems like good advice for everybody who rides.

These exercises are only useful for riders that ride extremely slowly. Once above a crawling pace, the rider isn't using their body to balance the motorcycle in that manner. At speeds as low as 20mph, the motorcycle will ignore those types of inputs.

 

[beginner]

It depends on the goal of the rider (just turning or attempting to do the smallest figure 8 possible. The techniques would be slightly different.

Something more specific would be helpful.

Your understanding of counter steering is weak. If you are riding the motorcycle, and you have gotten it to change direction, counter steering has occurred whether you felt it or not. At lower speeds it is darn near imperceptible, especially to new riders.

My understanding of counter steering may be different than yours. Counter steering doesn't turn the bike, it's one of two ways the rider has to initiate a LEAN, the other being counter balancing. (Counter balancing leans the bike, counter steering causes a rolling motion.) At lower speeds counter steering may be imperceptible because it did not take place. At lower speeds it's possible to lean the bike with body weight alone then stabilize the lean by turing the wheel in the direction the bike is leaning.

Counter balancing can be used when turning a motorcycle, but it doesn't make the motorcycle turn. In fact, counter balancing can be done without turning.

Neither counter balancing nor counter steering turn the bike, they only lean the bike. To counter balance without turning set a straight course and 5-7 mph, lean upper body weight far to one side (say, to the right) then counter steer by turning the wheel also to the right far enough to maintain a straight course. Now you are counter balancing, counter steering, the bike is leaning AND it is on a straight path.

Um, no. No it isn't. There is much more to turning than that, and students are taught more than that.

How about one for-instance.

No, not really. You suspect there is more to it than that because you are self taught and distrust the experts.

It's not that I distrust Motorcycle Experts, it's that they don't share their knowledge unless they are being paid. In a discussion like this they aren't being paid so all they end up doing is raising various objections and impeding the conversation without contributing anything on the merits.

And herein lies the problem with your parking lot repetition. You are concentrating on leaning, rather than getting the bigger picture.

The two variable I'm focused on in most parking lot exercises are lean and traction.

Looking where you want to go is paramount everytime you ride a motorcycle, especially on the street.

Sometimes I'm looking where I want to go, other times I'm looking around for hazards that might move into my path, like deer or traffic. Both are skills that benefit from practice.

If you took the time to allow an expert watch and coach you, they would be able to redirect your focus (and learning) to more useful and practical skills for survival. These experts would be able to analyze you skills and more easily assist you to attain your goal of learning how to ride.

Perhaps. Today I'll be getting on the bike, going to the parking lot and practicing some more. There are no experts for many miles around. I'll have to make the best of it.

Again, you are concentrating way too much on lean angle. Just turn the bike. Decide where you want to go, and make the motorcycle get there. I seriously suspect that your focus on lean angle is due to your desire to self learn w/o input from experts, combined with riding a dirtbike, with knobbies, on a paved surface.[

There is one thing the bike is always doing--leaning. A turn is the result of establishing a lean angle at a given speed. If I get the speed and lean right the turn of the wheel seems to take care of itself.

These exercises are only useful for riders that ride extremely slowly. Once above a crawling pace, the rider isn't using their body to balance the motorcycle in that manner. At speeds as low as 20mph, the motorcycle will ignore those types of inputs.

As mentioned before, I don't operated above 30 mph but regardless of speed, upper body weight, moved side to side or forward and back, has an influence on lean angle and traction. The influence of body weight on lean angle was the most important insight after 16 weeks. The influence of body weight on traction was the most important discovery at 24 weeks, just before the seaon ended.

Now I'm 3 days back riding after three months off. I didn't take as long to get back to being comfortable in the parking lot as I expected and there are some noticable changes in how things feel already. If I can avoid getting hurt it's going to be a fun summer.

In other sports layoffs are necessary to make progress in the long run, usually to heal injuries and give everything a rest. I'm thinking now that layoffs from motorcycle riding have benefits. It seems like there were lessons to be learned from feeling diminished skills and some loss of motor coordination and build that back in the parking lot. I also notice there are diminished skills everyday so I make a point to warm up in the parking lot, not much different from a tennis player or golfer.

 

[CaptCrash]

It would be interesting to know if the motorcycle safety people had anything to say about figure 8s besides turning your head.

Since you don't want expert input and WANT expert input here goes:

Turning your head is a foundational skill. Here's a proof for you--open your garage door. Line your bike up at the top of the driveway (this works well on farms because driveways can be reeeeeeeeally long). Find an object about 50ft to the right of your garage door. TARGET FIXATE ON IT. Ride into the garage while staring at the object off to the side.

Hopefully you won't hurt yourself or damage your bike or garage. It's a difficult task to use your peripheral vision as your primary guidance.

NEXT, set things up the same but look "THROUGH" the garage keeping your head and eyes up. Easier huh? 'Cause you truly go where you look.

Figure 8s are great because if you ride them like Corndog, you keep your head and eyes up and don't get fixated on the ground 5 feet in front of you. Our DirtyBarfer friends will remind you that staring 5 feet in front of you is pretty useless because by the time you see a problem, decide what to do and attempt to act--you've hit it. Head and eyes up, looking ahead, helps you live a little farther in the future and gives you TIME to act and choose a better path.

IF your figure 8 is embedding bad technique like stariing immediately in front of the front tire, then you need to use your figure 8 to lift your eyes.

Figure 8s are nice for low speed practice and U-turn practice. You can practice counterbalancing as Enchanter points out!

Another nice thing is that figure 8s allow riders to experience the suspension "loading and unloading". As you pass through the crossover, you return for a moment to a straight path, as that happens the suspension 'unloads' and you then pitch it into another turn and the suspension 'reloads'. For some riders this is the first time they get to feel the bike unload/reload and the sensation of the bike springing up and then biting back down is an important one to feel.

This unload/reload could be mistaken for 'slip' or 'drift' because your butt's relationship to the tire and ground change. For example, as the rear unloads, your butt actually get FARTHER away from the rear axle--as the suspension unloads, the rear axle 'travels' away from you--a feeling possibly mistaken for slip. Likewise, when you 'load' the suspension you get closer to the rear axle as the suspension compresses.

SO as an unwanted/wanted "Expert" let me say:

Figure 8s are great. Especially done right.


***Capt Crash isn't really an expert, he just plays one on YouTube...

 

[beginner]

Since you don't want expert input and WANT expert input here goes:

People who want to contribute their experiences or ideas about their experiences should feel free to participate.

Turning your head is a foundational skill.

Sure, agreed, and that's true in lots of sports, may be most of them. It came up a lot with jumping horses over fences, the caveat being, in a jumping ring there are no traffic issues, no reason to look anywhere except through the fence or combination.

Here's a proof for you--open your garage door. Line your bike up at the top of the driveway (this works well on farms because driveways can be reeeeeeeeally long). Find an object about 50ft to the right of your garage door. TARGET FIXATE ON IT. Ride into the garage while staring at the object off to the side.

it's hard to drive where you aren't looking. I've mentioned before, I like to do figure 8s in a paved 18' ROW. I do 4 head checks per complete circuit. It's disorienting to do that but valuable if there can be traffic around.

Figure 8s are great because if you ride them like Corndog, you keep your head and eyes up and don't get fixated on the ground 5 feet in front of you.

Where I look depends on what part of the circle I'm in.

Our DirtyBarfer friends will remind you that staring 5 feet in front of you is pretty useless because by the time you see a problem, decide what to do and attempt to act--you've hit it. Head and eyes up, looking ahead, helps you live a little farther in the future and gives you TIME to act and choose a better path.

Depends on how fast your're going and the condition of the trail. Often I'm going slow because of very harsh terrain in situations where I can avoid what's five feet ahead. That's not meant to refute your general rule but just to say there are exceptions.

IF your figure 8 is embedding bad technique like stariing immediately in front of the front tire, then you need to use your figure 8 to lift your eyes. Figure 8s are nice for low speed practice and U-turn practice. You can practice counterbalancing as Enchanter points out!

What I get from the figure 8s is leaning and traction training. I'm learning to feel the bike.

Another nice thing is that figure 8s allow riders to experience the suspension "loading and unloading". As you pass through the crossover, you return for a moment to a straight path, as that happens the suspension 'unloads' and you then pitch it into another turn and the suspension 'reloads'. For some riders this is the first time they get to feel the bike unload/reload and the sensation of the bike springing up and then biting back down is an important one to feel.

Now I'm going to have to look for that. Suspension changes don't seem to be such a big factor on my bike in that situation unless I pinch the front tire.

This unload/reload could be mistaken for 'slip' or 'drift' because your butt's relationship to the tire and ground change. For example, as the rear unloads, your butt actually get FARTHER away from the rear axle--as the suspension unloads, the rear axle 'travels' away from you--a feeling possibly mistaken for slip. Likewise, when you 'load' the suspension you get closer to the rear axle as the suspension compresses.

Good things to think about but the the sliping is there. I get it by slight increases in throttle and leaning body weight forward, off the rear tire onto the front. You think I can't be doing it but may be I can learn to make the behavior more exagerated so it's easier to see on a video. Time will tell.

A propos of nothing, I've been courious about what top speed feels comfortable in 18'by36' figure 8s in second gear. The bike has no speedometer but does have a good mechanical tripometer. I set that at zero then rode the figure 8 for some milles and find I'm averaging a mile every 5.5 minutes which is 960 feet per minute or 10.9 mph. That's quick enough so that if I make a mistake on the turn back to the center the front tire slips a tiny bit, or a not so tiny bit. No falls from that yet.

 

[Razel]

Since you don't want expert input and WANT expert input ***Capt Crash isn't really an expert, he just plays one on YouTube...

People who want to contribute their experiences or ideas about their experiences should feel free to participate..

Just quoting that for the following observation
You are going at this with one hand tied behind your back. There is a HUGE benefit from having someone observe you and offering suggestions, not just relaying experiences other folks have. You look through a turn. Someone who is familiar (expert?) tells you you aren't turning your head enough for the turn. Your self-taught approach fails.
Watch police competitions. Yes, they're experts, as that's why they're competing. Watch their head through the turn. Learn from that and you can make the slow speed manuvers much more easily.

Or, exclude the "experts", and continue with one hand tied behind your back. Eventually, you'll get it, but the amount of time wasted is unfortunate.

 

[beginner]

Just quoting that for the following observation
You are going at this with one hand tied behind your back. There is a HUGE benefit from having someone observe you and offering suggestions, not just relaying experiences other folks have. You look through a turn. Someone who is familiar (expert?) tells you you aren't turning your head enough for the turn. Your self-taught approach fails.
Watch police competitions. Yes, they're experts, as that's why they're competing. Watch their head through the turn. Learn from that and you can make the slow speed manuvers much more easily.

Or, exclude the "experts", and continue with one hand tied behind your back. Eventually, you'll get it, but the amount of time wasted is unfortunate.

There is no such person available anywhere near the farm.

My point about experts is about discussions like this, not the practice range. I'm trying to discuss practice issues on the merits with people who are interested in doing that. Motorcycle Experts will only talk about the merits of Motorcycle Experts and decline to share useful information about practice.

I got in two rides so far today and figured out the back slips easier if the bike is leaned less in the turn so I'm tending to lean forward and to the inside when I want the back end looser. To get it to show up better on video I have to find a way to get the rear loose earlier and steer wider without losing balance. The problem is steering wider tends to hook the rear back up.

 

[SVJ]

Anyone else feel like we have keith codes alter ego here?

Seriously. Take your mind out of this just a little. Get on the bike, twist the throttle and don't hit anything. Smiles are sure to follow and you will learn just as fast as or faster than sitting on the Internet overanalyzing it to death.

Riding is the only way to get better. Present yourself with ever changing obstacles and terrain and you skills will grow faster than you can imagine. Or you will find that motorcycles aren't for you and you need to take up knitting like edzx6...

 

[CaptCrash]

I got in two rides so far today and figured out the back slips easier if the bike is leaned less in the turn so I'm tending to lean forward and to the inside when I want the back end looser. To get it to show up better on video I have to find a way to get the rear loose earlier and steer wider without losing balance. The problem is steering wider tends to hook the rear back up.

I know you're loathe to talk to experts that might disagree with your...grasp of physics. I would suggest that the idea that the back is slipping more with less speed and less lean--kinda goes against all my personal experience AND motorcycle physics as I understand it.

HOWEVER, there is a SM/Supermoto Forum here where lots of...non-expert/regular folks post. Perhaps a chit chat with them will help with your understanding of what's going on. They like to slip, perhaps they understand what it is you're doing. If you're really feeling serious about talking 10mph slip and drift they're going to give you the best feedback you can get on this.

Be safe.

 

[beginner]

Anyone else feel like we have keith codes alter ego here?

I'm not a Motorcycle Expert.

Seriously. Take your mind out of this just a little. Get on the bike, twist the throttle and don't hit anything. Smiles are sure to follow and you will learn just as fast as or faster than sitting on the Internet overanalyzing it to death.

I rode 3 one hour sessions today and got some other things done too. It would be interesting to hear about your slow speed practice.

I know you're loathe to talk to experts that might disagree with your...grasp of physics. I would suggest that the idea that the back is slipping more with less speed and less lean--kinda goes against all my personal experience AND motorcycle physics as I understand it.

The rear will slip when the bikes leaned more or leaned less. I can keep the bike balanced longer when it's standing up straighter, may be that's the difference. This is brand new territory.

HOWEVER, there is a SM/Supermoto Forum here where lots of...non-expert/regular folks post. Perhaps a chit chat with them will help with your understanding of what's going on. They like to slip, perhaps they understand what it is you're doing. If you're really feeling serious about talking 10mph slip and drift they're going to give you the best feedback you can get on this.

Good suggestion. I'll go read some threads and see what they talk about. I haven't yet tried to search on the topic either. That might be productive. There may be some additional technique I don't know about but mostly it seems to be about feel for traction and lean. The more I can feel the more I can do. (Sliping the rear in the figure 8 is easier going slower than 10 mph, it's not really about the speed.)

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

Motorcycle Experts will only talk about the merits of Motorcycle Experts and decline to share useful information about practice.

Alright, look-- claims such as these are ridiculous and frankly offensive. If it were even remotely true, there would be almost no one left on this forum-- no MSF instructors, no experienced riders, no LEOs, and nobody showing up to speak with them. The moderators here do not get paid to put up with people like you, but they're trying anyway.

Many people engage in discussions here because they genuinely love what they do and feel a bond with others who share their interests and want to help and learn from each other. Motorcycling is a hazardous activity, and many experienced riders feel they have an important responsibility to make an effort to share what they know, to support and educate newcomers. Look at the 1Rider forum for crying out loud, nobody's getting PAID for that, they just honestly don't want clumsy fools like you and me to fucking DIE. If we insist on ignoring them and end up landing on our damned heads, like family members they will be stuck wondering if they could have done something better. Saying that these people have nothing to offer is an insult not just to their efforts, but to their humanity. It's an insult to everyone on two wheels. ....And you wonder why we get irked with you.

 

[beginner]

Alright, look-- claims such as these are ridiculous and frankly offensive. If it were even remotely true, there would be almost no one left on this forum-- no MSF instructors, no experienced riders, no LEOs, and nobody showing up to speak with them. The moderators here do not get paid to put up with people like you, but they're trying anyway.

Many people engage in discussions here because they genuinely love what they do and feel a bond with others who share their interests and want to help and learn from each other. Motorcycling is a hazardous activity, and many experienced riders feel they have an important responsibility to make an effort to share what they know, to support and educate newcomers. Look at the 1Rider forum for crying out loud, nobody's getting PAID for that, they just honestly don't want clumsy fools like you and me to fucking DIE. If we insist on ignoring them and end up landing on our damned heads, like family members they will be stuck wondering if they could have done something better. Saying that these people have nothing to offer is an insult not just to their efforts, but to their humanity. It's an insult to everyone on two wheels. ....And you wonder why we get irked with you.

Contribute something about slow speed practice. If that doesn't interest you--wrong thread.

I noticed some other things about my riding on this third day back after three months off. In the few off-road places that aren't too wet to ride I'm handling the bike better than last year even on the first pass.

I did some braking practice today, and with more confidence, may be too much confidence, compared to last year. It seems like something must have been going on in my head even when I wasn't riding.

I want to get more agressive with the brakes this year, harder braking from higher speeds. I'm thinking about doing some hard braking while riding up some grades so I can lean on the controls harder with less chance of lossing traction or having that condition develop slower and more predictably. I'd like to skid the front and/or rear tire in braking to see what that feels like. I don't have the nerve to do it on pavement yet so may be it's doable on grass or sand at reletively low speed.

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

Do you do any slow speed practice?

Yes. I started with the MSF, the range days are 10 solid hours of low speed drills. When I could, I took a friend's DR and now take my Nighthawk to a large parking lot in the Presidio and attempt some very basic U-turns-in-the-box type maneuvers. The Nighthawk is 500lbs and doesn't handle as deftly as a dual sport, so my arms tire quickly wrestling with it and I can only do it for a little while at a time, and I'm not any good yet. Really, only idiots don't practice low speed stuff, I mean how is anyone supposed to figure out how to park or turn otherwise.

Now, did you even read my last post?

 

[SVJ]

If you asked my friends they would say all of my practice is slow speed...

But actually I do practice real world situations such as log crossings, climbng steep hills, wheelies and stoppies. Btw it is a dirtbike, if it's not sliding the front the back or both at once you are doing something wrong!

 

[beginner]

Yes. I started with the MSF, the range days are 10 solid hours of low speed drills. When I could, I took a friend's DR and now take my Nighthawk to a large parking lot in the Presidio and attempt some very basic U-turns-in-the-box type maneuvers. The Nighthawk is 500lbs and doesn't handle as deftly as a dual sport, so my arms tire quickly wrestling with it and I can only do it for a little while at a time, and I'm not any good yet. Really, only idiots don't practice low speed stuff, I mean how is anyone supposed to figure out how to park or turn otherwise.

Now, did you even read my last post?

I read your last post but it's not the topic of the thread, practice is the topic. My bike weighs 240 pounds, not 500, which makes practice easier. It should be possible to do all the same stuff on the bigger bike but may be everything needs to be a bit bigger and slower and progress will be slower. For the first 12 weeks I was stiff on the bike. One of the symptoms was numb hands on the grips in practice. As soon as my body accepted the motion of the bike the numb hands and tired arms went away.

If you asked my friends they would say all of my practice is slow speed...

But actually I do practice real world situations such as log crossings, climbng steep hills, wheelies and stoppies. Btw it is a dirtbike, if it's not sliding the front the back or both at once you are doing something wrong!

I'm also on a dirt bike, not ready for wheelies and stoppies yet. This summer's project is to get the rear, and hopefully the front, unhooked on dirt and pavement. I should get a log, put it in the grass and practice getting the front and back wheel over it. I'm ready for that. I like the pavement because, on that smooth surface, I can learn faster what the bike does without the distraction of noise from the offroad surfaces. It's similar to inline speed skating. The place to find your edges is on the perfect surface of an indoor roller rink. Once you've got that feel you can tell the difference between what the edges are doing and what's coming from the rougher outdoor pavement.

 

[Razel]

I read your last post but it's not the topic of the thread, practice is the topic.

No, there's a part of the topic that says "No experts", too. Right there, you know, in the title of the thread. A number of us see that as a serious issue with this thread. But, if you're going to ask for help in how to learn motorcycle riding skills all the while insisting that the blinders be kept in place...I guess that's your call. Just don't be frustrated at the results.

 

[beginner]

No, there's a part of the topic that says "No experts", too. Right there, you know, in the title of the thread. A number of us see that as a serious issue with this thread. But, if you're going to ask for help in how to learn motorcycle riding skills all the while insisting that the blinders be kept in place...I guess that's your call. Just don't be frustrated at the results.

"Helping" people who haven't asked for it is a crude way to control the forum but it's bad manners.

The "serious issue" is that there is very little slow speed practice going on. Please talk about yours. If you don't do any consider that it might increase your enjoyment of the bike and improve your safety margin. If you're not interested in any of that please ignore this thread.

In the mean time, another thing that seems to be different for me, a beginner starting season two, is concentration span. Last year 2 hours total per day was the max for my brain--and my backside. It appears it will be longer this year. That creates the possibility to learn faster but creates at least two problems.

My back side still rebels against the narrow off road seat in two hours. I've looked for a source for a wider seat with no success so far. A wider seat would need to be slightly lower to avoid raising the seat height. (This morning I notice people using sheepskin covers. I should have thought of that. I used them on saddles for horseback riding.) The other problem remains front tire wear.

An hour a day in the parking will wear the outside edges of the Kenda 270 front to the carcass in about 6 weeks. An extra half hour a day of PLP could wear it down in 4 weeks. The virtues of the Kenda are low price, low rolling resistance, and acceptable off road traction. The disadvantages are mediocre traction on pavement and rapid wear. Choosing tires is tougher than it should be because the tire companies don't explain the design criteria for the various models with any more than simplistic generalities and price point and there is no mention anywhere of rolling resisitance, which is important and varies a lot. I can't even find a document that defines DOT specifications for 'street legal'. The industry should do better than that.

 

[Razel]

"Helping" people who haven't asked for it is a crude way to control the forum but it's bad manners.

Non sequitur.

Before you bring up bad manners in others, you might take a look around.

Good luck on your quest...

 

[beginner]

Crash was right about my little parking lot being big enough for braking practice. Apparently I've lost some fear of losing traction because I'm much more aggressive with the brakes than last year. There is a 3-4 degree grade in the lot and it feels more comfortable to brake hard going up the grade. I don't know what top speeds I was getting but it was enough to leave 30' long dark black skid marks. The longest one was 36'. I don't think I locked any wheel. I don't recall ever leaving skid marks before but may be I wasn't watching for that on the road.

After the braking practice the tires seemed to have more grip for turning so maybe the way to start practice sessions is with some braking to heat up the tires for better traction for turning.

 

[Enchanter]

Crash was right about my little parking lot being big enough for braking practice. Apparently I've lost some fear of losing traction because I'm much more aggressive with the brakes than last year. There is a 3-4 degree grade in the lot and it feels more comfortable to brake hard going up the grade. I don't know what top speeds I was getting but it was enough to leave 30' long dark black skid marks. The longest one was 36'. I don't think I locked any wheel. I don't recall ever leaving skid marks before but may be I wasn't watching for that on the road.

After the braking practice the tires seemed to have more grip for turning so maybe the way to start practice sessions is with some braking to heat up the tires for better traction for turning.

You left a 36ft skid mark and don't think you locked a wheel? Dude, the evidence is right there in front of you and you deny it? You really need to re-evaluate your ability to correctly interpret what the motorcycle is doing beneath you.

You are one hell of a close-minded individual. The next time I have an urge to comment on another of your posts (outside of the Training and Crash Analysis forums), I'll just go pound my head against a brick wall. I'll get more of a result there.

 

[CaptCrash]

Sounds like you had a good time. Enchanter is correct, if you're leaving skid marks...well, they're called skid marks for a reason. Start with less rear brake and as you slow, release pressure on the rear while progressively squeezing the front.

BE CAREFUL. On a bike such as yours you'll really compress the front so don't be surprised by it. If the front skids, release the front brake and reapply.

By standard, if it's taking you at LEAST 36 feet to stop then you're nowhere close to the standards...going 20 you should be able to stop in under 25 feet. I'm sure we posted the ALT MOST standards somewhere in one of these threads so I'd go back and look there--it's an MSF set standard so it's doable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQpJDux_M-w Watch the front end compress (we often call it LOADING the front) while I make that firm progressive squeeze. Good luck. Be careful, without a coach to walk you through it it's very easy to have a moment of "discovery learning" and end up on you head.