Accidentally hitting throttle when hard braking

[rodr]

... Aren't understood, and believed by other BARF members....

Lou, I suspect you are very good at many things. It would be a killer combination to add teaching and empathy to that list. Said with much respect.

 

[tzrider]

I use my middle and ring fingers to brake, not my index and middle finger.

What made you decide to use these two fingers? There are no hard and fast rules about this, but for most people the ring and pinkie fingers don't move as independently of each other as the first and middle fingers. As the first and middle can move very independently of all other fingers, it is a little easier to move them without affecting the rest of the hand.

Have you tried other combinations with respect to the problem you're describing?

 

[Pluot]

What made you decide to use these two fingers? There are no hard and fast rules about this, but for most people the ring and pinkie fingers don't move as independently of each other as the first and middle fingers. As the first and middle can move very independently of all other fingers, it is a little easier to move them without affecting the rest of the hand.

Have you tried other combinations with respect to the problem you're describing?

Mostly it's because I can't comfortably reach the brake lever with my index finger. With gloves on I'd have to reach/extend my hand over and lift it from the throttle to get a secure grip. I will try the index+middle finger grips out again before my commute home today though.

Edit: Tried this on the way home. Could not reach lever with my index finger. I can only rest my index finger on the lever. My middle and ring fingers are longer.

 

[Pluot]

Ok, really long reply thread after reading everyone's feedback. Also, I think I might have figured out the issue.

1. My hand and fingers are short. To address that I have adjusted the levers at my mechanic's twice already (and several times on the GS) to what I felt was a comfortable braking lever adjustment: my fingers could reach without me having to 'extend' my fingers.

2. Whereas my GS I couldn't adjust the distance between handlebar and lever, on this SV650s I could since it has a lever span, so I brought it in as close to my handlebar as possible.

3. I tried grabbing my brakes both slow and hard, going between the GS and my SV650s while both were parked. The levers are both at pretty much same height. (I tried the suggestion to see where my fingers would naturally align were the lever were not there - kinda hard with the lever there, but I think I could adjust it downwards 1/2 inch for alignment as suggested.) Grabbing hard, I realize the throttle does not move on the GS but it does on the SV. I am coming to the conclusion that it may be because I have overcompensated for my small hands/short fingers and have raised the bar a bit too high and brought in the lever too close.

Both the GS and SV levers are probably set a little too high; however while the GS throttle remains static on a hard grab on the brakes (high lever), I think the fact that the SV lever is adjustable and is brought in to the closest setting (high lever+lever too close) is the culprit. I think tzrider got it spot on. To me it feels like a comfortable lever span setting; however, it may be too close for actual brake application if I'm hitting the throttle.

If you can adjust the lever span, try to get it so the lever contacts your fingers between the first and second knuckle when the brakes first start to bite. A lever that's too close to the bar tends to make the rider turn the throttle hand to pull the brake.

So now to adjust the lever farther and lower.. may I ask, how many of you have to reach/'extend' to brake? I've had to reach for my lever before on factory settings and wasn't entirely comfortable doing so.

P.S. I am planning on going to Doc Wong's Ergo class when I can.

But there is a strong part of your grip, and it usually not at the beginning of a lever throw but closer to the bar.

I do not really follow what this means. Can you clarify?

I agree....
Not sure if this is your issue, but sometimes the levers cannot be adjusted in far enough to be comfortable for people with smaller hands. I would suggest you keep a nice low to level wrist position to begin with, and when you want to apply the front brake make sure to roll your hand forward, rolling off the throttle as you reach your finger(s) towards and around the lever. Reaching forward with your fingers will give you the throttle roll off and the finger "extension" needed to wrap them (or it) around the brake lever. In this manner, when you pull the lever in your palm is rolling forward slightly, if that makes sense?

I think this is what I may have to do.. I think the reason I don't like having to reach (while I understand your explanation why it can be useful) is because I feel like I am losing half a second in that time to reach forward and reach my fingers. What do you think?

If you rotated the lever downwards a bit, the angle would reduce your need to rotate your wrist when you reach for the brake lever.

If I follow correctly, are you suggesting my lever position is currently too high? I have had it adjusted higher so I can reach the better. I'm trying to correctly understand the 'downward' rotation, and I think I understand it correctly. However, the reason I have adjusted it upward is because I felt like I was reaching for the lever. I think I might try adjusting it back down half an inch.

Clip-ons are not the problem....... Blaming equipment for lack of skill. Adjust levers and or replace them with something that fits better and practice braking. One finger braking is available on some bikes, though they probably come with clip-ons.

I have the levers set up at exactly the same height as my GS500 and it's never happened on my GS. My best guess was a lack of skill combined with the riding position. What is this lack of braking skill that you are addressing and how do you suggest I fix it? Saying I lack skill in a post that started out asking what I could do to improve my skill, then giving zero helpful advice on how to actually improve my skill is absolutely pointless.

When you say "hit the throttle", do you mean weight transfer to the bar or do you actually mean rotation of the throttle ?

If its the latter, I could see a very natural grabbing movement actually rotating the wrist especially if you're forced to extend your fingers to reach the levers.
If the problem is indeed over extension of the fingers, then handlebars wont do squat, you need adjustable levers.

Have you practiced applying the throttle with the bike off to see your hand / wrist movement ?

I meant the rotation of the throttle. I initially thought it was the weight on my wrist pulling the throttle towards me, but I understand now it is rather a matter of lever setting. I have tried applying the throttle with the bike off today. I believe my wrist starts turning the throttle when the brake is brought all the way in and I continue to apply pressure.

 

[Enchanter]

If you have the time, would you be interested in meeting in person to discuss and adjust your levers? A longtime BARFer owns a shop in Santa Clara (RMC Moto) and I can meet you there on Saturday and can go over the position of all the controls on your motorcycle, and spend some time looking into your technique.

 

[KittenMeat]

I think it's actually awesome that this many BARFers care about another user having ergonomic problems on her bike enough to passionately argue with one another.


NO! YOURE NOT HELPFUL! IM MORE HELPFUL. NO! I WANT TO HELP YOU MORE! YOU WILL BE LAPPING L1T3RB1K35 ON YOUR 500 ON TRACK DAYS I'LL TEACH YOU.

if this is really the level of argument we are having, I'm pretty happy with y'all. Just a thought. =)


here's a couple links to some auctions.

CRG : http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRG-RC2-Bra...m3ab1e9f794:m:mCV_JZlkHmmk0vaXiQpne_A&vxp=mtr

PAZZO: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pazzo-Short...m3a4fbfbe9c:m:meHL1nyOIck1tRlDnMZqjfQ&vxp=mtr


these are from an SVRider forum member. they come highly recommended.
https://madscientistmoto.com/product-category/levers/suzuki/sv650/

much cheaper. Adjustable is the most important thing.

shorty levers don't necessarily mean better. longer means more leverage. I like teh shape of shorties, but it's totally an individual thing. I have shorties from triumph even on my ADVTiger.

 

[Pluot]

If you have the time, would you be interested in meeting in person to discuss and adjust your levers? A longtime BARFer owns a shop in Santa Clara (RMC Moto) and I can meet you there on Saturday and can go over the position of all the controls on your motorcycle, and spend some time looking into your technique.

Hello Enchanter,

thank you for your offer to help me. I would love to accept it. I will PM you.

 

[ZXR400SP]

Ok, really long reply thread after reading everyone's feedback. Also, I think I might have figured out the issue.

I have the levers set up at exactly the same height as my GS500 and it's never happened on my GS. My best guess was a lack of skill combined with the riding position. What is this lack of braking skill that you are addressing and how do you suggest I fix it? Saying I lack skill in a post that started out asking what I could do to improve my skill, then giving zero helpful advice on how to actually improve my skill is absolutely pointless.

I meant the rotation of the throttle. I initially thought it was the weight on my wrist pulling the throttle towards me, but I understand now it is rather a matter of lever setting. I have tried applying the throttle with the bike off today. I believe my wrist starts turning the throttle when the brake is brought all the way in and I continue to apply pressure.

I was responding to Lou, sorry I didn't give you a suggestion to fix it. Well I partially did, adjustable levers should help, shorty's won't solve the issue and may exacerbate it. I believe are you squeezing the lever and you are rotating the throttle tube because instead of just pulling your fingers towards you, you are also closing your hand like you're making a fist, the thumb closing rotates the tube. This is a skill and this bike is different from your GS500.

You should concentrate on squeezing the lever with your fingers, doesn't matter which ones you use, just what works for you. Practice till you stop rolling the throttle, braking should start out as a caress, slow and gentle, then more firmly as you need to stop or slow. You can practice by bringing your thumb up on top of the throttle tube, if you're still adding throttle when braking it will be obvious as you'll be rotating your whole hand to do it, which is another habit to avoid.

Other things that can help are regular maintenance of your brakes, bleeding air from the lines, better pads can also help reduce the effort needed to brake as well.

 

[DIY]

Another +1 for upgrading the brakes. I prefer the lever set on the closest position to the bar but as you have noted, it doesn't provide enough braking force for the lever travel allowed. I went whole hog and upgraded the master cylinder, added new braided steel brake lines, rebuilt the calipers, and added some race pads. Now there is tons of bite and very little lever travel just like I like it. It's awesome! My hands always seemed mid way between lever settings. Setting 4 was too close to the bar and 3 was too far away.

As for Lou... I would only like to +1 what rodr stated but in my own way. A good teacher is someone that finds your weak points AND helps you develop and execute efforts to reduce that deficiency. If the prevailing answers are not understood by the pupil, the it is up to the master to provide clarity or opportunities for the pupil to be guided to success. Omitting a step is accepting failure. By taking this approach the student and the teacher can correlate in a one to one fashion where there is growth and provide a framework for careful analysis and insight. Teaching is not a cowboy shooting from the hip. It can be but there is no transference of depth.

 

[Pluot]

I went to Doc Wong's braking class this past Thursday. 4 main points I took away from the class: Take baby steps when learning new skills on the bike (and go back and master earlier level steps/skills when having difficulty advancing at a particular stage), squeeze legs when braking to minimize accidental weight transferred to handlebars, finish braking before turns (this seems to be a point I see emphasized again and again, everywhere), remember the traction circle. Doc was great, class was concise and informative. Reminds me that the best riders always keep the basics in mind.

Met with Enchanter this morning, was a great pleasure. He helped me reposition my brake and clutch levers, and I learned to adjust them on my own. Also learned how to adjust my pedal settings. We discussed that my levers were too high making my wrists bend at an upwards angle. Adjusted them down lower.

Thanks again for taking the time to meet me and teach me new things. Very much appreciated!

Also thanks to everyone who gave me feedback and overall great advice in this thread. You are all very much the reason why BARF is such an awesome, constructive community. I hope to gain enough wisdom and knowledge that I may pass it on the same way you all do.

I was responding to Lou, sorry I didn't give you a suggestion to fix it. Well I partially did, adjustable levers should help, shorty's won't solve the issue and may exacerbate it. I believe are you squeezing the lever and you are rotating the throttle tube because instead of just pulling your fingers towards you, you are also closing your hand like you're making a fist, the thumb closing rotates the tube. This is a skill and this bike is different from your GS500.

You should concentrate on squeezing the lever with your fingers, doesn't matter which ones you use, just what works for you. Practice till you stop rolling the throttle, braking should start out as a caress, slow and gentle, then more firmly as you need to stop or slow. You can practice by bringing your thumb up on top of the throttle tube, if you're still adding throttle when braking it will be obvious as you'll be rotating your whole hand to do it, which is another habit to avoid.

Other things that can help are regular maintenance of your brakes, bleeding air from the lines, better pads can also help reduce the effort needed to brake as well.

Thanks, good feedback.

 

[CaptCrash]

It's amazing how a "wrist high" position messes up braking. As a general rule during instruction when a rider is revving while braking it's a wrist position issue. The interesting part of beginner training is that they're braking, rev it, the release the brakes! It makes for pulse quickening moments...