Can Costco search a person's bag?

[digitalbar]

As a rider, I carry a backpack for my tablet PC (at that time $3000 not including softwhere and work stuff). I ran over to Fry's one day to pick up some puter equipment they were working on for me and got stopped at the door. The gentleman (boy) notified me that they will have to hold my bag. I told him NO thank you. At that time I had my tablet pc and a friends laptop in my backpack and some otherthings that easliy added up to $5000. Funny thing is that they sell both of the laptops I had in my bag. I could see them taking my bag and mistakenly putting my stuff back on there shelves. (lol)
I told them they could have the bag for $9000 and they (supervisor came over) did not find that so amusing. Just then, I saw a girl with a purse (bigger than my bag) walk in without any proplems, I did not want to be an ass so I said nothing. I would have just left but I did need to pick up the stuff they were working on. Eventually someone a little higher up came over said to let me through and started to explain to the employees that Fry's has security cameras and stuff I can't remmember. It felt like I was a criminal before a crime was even committed.
On the way out of Fry's I showed my reciept and did NOT open my bag.

 

[Noid]

Next time you all are at, Wall Mart, Sears, JC Penney's, Home Depot, or any other retailer, take a hard look around either the front door's or at the "Customer Service" desk. Most if not all of these places have a "Right to Inspect or Search" hand bags, back packs, bags of all kinds. Your arguing with them just gives them more "cause" to detain you and bring in the Police. Yes, they can legally detain you if they choose to bring in LEO. If you have nothing to hide, why put up such a "you are violating my rights" argument. You will also notice another sign, a "right to not serve" or even go as far as a "right to ban you from any of their chain stores". 99% of the time, they will not "push" hard on these, but, There are those times and the right type of person who will push to hard and get stuck out in the cold. As an independent business owner, I had the right not to service anyone or do any work for them. I could talk or not talk to them. I had many claim that I was preventing them from fixing their own stuff" because I wouldn't tell them how to do it. Familiarize yourselves with the Business and Professions Codes. This will answer a lot of questions and assumptions.

Don't take this wrong. I only ask these questions I wanna know what is right or wrong long most ofthe people here on "barf".

So with that said. You are telling everyone here that any store personal has the right to stop you and search you for stolen goods without cause?

If yes please explain this.

I will have to look the next time I go into any of these stores for the sign you speak of.

With that said. what if there are no signs?

 

[Razel]

Don't take this wrong. I only ask these questions I wanna know what is right or wrong long most ofthe people here on "barf".

So with that said. You are telling everyone here that any store personal has the right to stop you and search you for stolen goods without cause?

If yes please explain this.

I will have to look the next time I go into any of these stores for the sign you speak of.

With that said. what if there are no signs?

He qualified it with

Yes, they can legally detain you if they choose to bring in LEO

 

[Noid]

He qualified it with

Tha was a multi part question

 

[Noid]

Here is what I found. A store employee can not detain and/or search without cause.

Store operator
In the state of California, and in most cases the rest of the United States and other countries, store employees and managers have certain powers of arrest. Store Officials may detain for investigation (a reasonable length of time), whom they have probable cause to believe is attempting to take or has unlawfully taken merchandise.[2]

In the state of California, merchants may conduct a limited search to recover the item by those authorized to make the detention. Only packages, shopping bags, handbags or other property in the immediate possession of the person detained may be searched, but not any clothing worn by the person, pursuant to subdivision.[3]

Anyone, other than a peace officer, who arrests a person without a warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.[4]

A rule of thumb and in some cases a requirement to perform an arrest:

You must see the suspect enter the display area
You must witness the theft being committed
You must see where the suspect concealed the item, if concealed.
You must maintain visual contact with the suspect at all times
You must see the suspect fail to pay and exit the store
You must identify the property
A main fear of a store operator is an accused shoplifter would press charges on the business or the owner. Even if the accused had stolen from the establishment, the business may still run the risk of a lawsuit due to variables that may have occurred during the entire process. That's why many large franchises have very strict guidelines of how to handle shoplifters.


[edit] Accused shoplifters rights
An accused shoplifter has many rights that protect them from being falsely detained. An accused is subject to the many of the same rights as would be present in an arrest from sworn law enforcement, such as the right to remain silent.

False imprisonment is the unlawful restraint of someone that affects the person’s freedom of movement. Both the threat of being physically confined and actually being physically confined can be considered false imprisonment if the customer is not free to leave. A store that performs receipt checks may not perform an arrest if a customer refuses to have their receipt checked.[5]


Here is a little more:


Taking a Stand: Your Powers of Arrest
As an employee or manager of a business, you and your staff have certain powers of arrest under the California Penal Code. To understand your rights and responsibilities, read the penal codes in full, and follow company policy on detaining individuals and keeping yourself and others safe from physical or verbal retaliation after accosting a suspected shoplifter.

490.5 PC
Anyone who is:

"the owner or employee, lessee, cosigner, operator agent or a person authorized by the owner or by the person in lawful possession of property, may detain for investigation (a reasonable length of time), whom they have probable cause to believe is attempting to take or has unlawfully taken merchandise"
This also gives the merchant the ability to conduct a limited search to recover the item by those authorized to make the detention. Only packages, shopping bags, handbags or other property in the immediate possession of the person detained may be searched, but not any clothing worn by the person, pursuant to subdivision 490.5(4).

Anyone, other than a peace officer, who arrests a person without a warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.

Important: You must actually witness a person committing an offense.
Secondhand information is not good enough.

837 PC - Arrest by Private Person

A private person may arrest another:

"For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence, when the person arrested has committed a felony, though not in his presence When a felony in fact has been committed and a reasonable cause exists for believing the person arrested is the one who committed it"
Your Responsibilities: If you didn't see it, it didn't happen
You have certain responsibilities when making an arrest
You must see the suspect enter the display area
You must witness the theft being committed
You must see where the suspect concealed the item, if concealed.
You must maintain visual contact with the suspect at all times
You must see the suspect fail to pay and exit the store
You must identify the property
Your Detention/Arrest Procedure

Approach cautiously and identify yourself; be polite, professional and try to have another employee present.
Ask the suspect to return the unpaid items to you.
Return to the store with the suspect.
Do not search the subject.
Call police immediately.
Retain all goods.
Have a witness present with you, if possible. Try to have one person of the same gender as the suspect with you at all times.
Make accurate notes including the names of any additional witnesses.

 

[wackyiraqi]

Your arguing with them just gives them more "cause" to detain you and bring in the Police. Yes, they can legally detain you if they choose to bring in LEO. If you have nothing to hide, why put up such a "you are violating my rights" argument.

Putting a sign on the wall doesn't give shopkeepers carte blanche to search their customers on a whim. They must first have probable cause, or they're opening themselves up to serious legal liability. And, news flash, "arguing with them" is not an ingredient in probable cause.

They can put all the signs up they want; I'm not stopping. If they try to physically detain me when I haven't stolen anything, they're going to meet resistance, and they're going to get sued.

Finally, the "nothing to hide" argument is a classic crock. I have plenty to hide, because it's MY SHIT and I don't want anyone randomly going through it. I'll gladly check my bags at the door if the store asks, but I am not a thief and I'm not getting searched.

I've refused my share of police consent searches, so some retail douchebag with an authority complex isn't about to scare me.

 

[nakedape]

Since I carry a big motobag everywhere I pay attention to the signs and heed them. Getting bent about retail store security is equivalent to complaining to the IRS. They just don't care.

If you DO have something to hide, you should stay at home. I've forgotten about loose .22 rounds in my bag and discovered them at school/work. Just a handful, but a felony in any case. Same with the folder. Over 2" and locking blade on school grounds (anywhere in CA.) too: a felony. I only spilled to the SRO the latter and he said "leave it at home".

Your attitude and defiance only brings heat, not light. Suggest an attitude adjustment and change of venue. Fixed...NApe

 

[EL TJ]

The constitution doesn't protect you from Costco, but they also don't have the legal power to detain you or search you against your will. You are free to leave, but they are also free to cancel your membership. It works both ways.

This is the correct answer.

If an employee observes you committing a crime in their presence, they do have a right to make a private person's arrest (aka citizen's arrest) under California law. However, there is no right to *detain* you to investigate for private citizens, with a few exceptions including store employees, who must have probable cause *first*. (Refusing to be searched does not constitute probable cause.)

If you refuse to allow them to search your bag and they block you, technically it is false imprisonment (though a DA would never prosecute this), and if they put hands on you it's battery (see above).

Their only recourse is (a) to not allow you in the store with a bag, otherwise you'd be tresspassing, (b) to cancel your membership if you leave without allowing them to search, or (c) to sue you civilly if they have proof you stole something, or (d) to detain and/or arrest you, if an employee observes you stealing something.

 

[EL TJ]

...but I also have to add, rather than arguing, it would be best to just play along and open up your bag. Costco is somewhat intrusive on the exit in terms of checking receipts, etc., but legal questions aside, you should take into account that it's with the good intentions of preventing theft from their store, and give them some leeway. As others have said, if you don't like it, it's probably best to just shop somewhere else.

 

[mud]

You beat me to it.

What I'll add is this:

Whenever the help asks to search my bag, I simply say "No thanks" and keep walking. If the beeping thing goes off, I stop and offer to open the bag. However, if it doesn't, I keep walking. I've never been chased or stopped.

Putting a sign on the wall doesn't give shopkeepers carte blanche to search their customers on a whim. They must first have probable cause, or they're opening themselves up to serious legal liability. And, news flash, "arguing with them" is not an ingredient in probable cause.

They can put all the signs up they want; I'm not stopping. If they try to physically detain me when I haven't stolen anything, they're going to meet resistance, and they're going to get sued.

Finally, the "nothing to hide" argument is a classic crock. I have plenty to hide, because it's MY SHIT and I don't want anyone randomly going through it. I'll gladly check my bags at the door if the store asks, but I am not a thief and I'm not getting searched.

I've refused my share of police consent searches, so some retail douchebag with an authority complex isn't about to scare me.

 

[bertocci]

This is the correct answer.

If an employee observes you committing a crime in their presence, they do have a right to make a private person's arrest (aka citizen's arrest) under California law. However, there is no right to *detain* you to investigate for private citizens, with a few exceptions including store employees, who must have probable cause *first*. (Refusing to be searched does not constitute probable cause.)

If you refuse to allow them to search your bag and they block you, technically it is false imprisonment (though a DA would never prosecute this), and if they put hands on you it's battery (see above).

Their only recourse is (a) to not allow you in the store with a bag, otherwise you'd be tresspassing, (b) to cancel your membership if you leave without allowing them to search, or (c) to sue you civilly if they have proof you stole something, or (d) to detain and/or arrest you, if an employee observes you stealing something.

Thanks, I forgot to mention that being allowed to leave at any time implies that they do not have probable cause. On the subject of probable cause, is it considered probable cause if one of those electronic sensors starts beeping when you leave? Given the overwhelming inaccuracy, I'm not sure how that would go.

 

[Lupin]

Putting a sign on the wall doesn't give shopkeepers carte blanche to search their customers on a whim. They must first have probable cause, or they're opening themselves up to serious legal liability. And, news flash, "arguing with them" is not an ingredient in probable cause.

They can put all the signs up they want; I'm not stopping. If they try to physically detain me when I haven't stolen anything, they're going to meet resistance, and they're going to get sued.

Finally, the "nothing to hide" argument is a classic crock. I have plenty to hide, because it's MY SHIT and I don't want anyone randomly going through it. I'll gladly check my bags at the door if the store asks, but I am not a thief and I'm not getting searched.

I've refused my share of police consent searches, so some retail douchebag with an authority complex isn't about to scare me.

I agree with you.

I can understand retailers frustration with theft but I have limits with what I am willing to put up with.

They already have cameras all over the store, I'm sure plain cloth "shoppers" wandering about. Headphones and other electronics are packaged in virtually indestructible plastic that you need a blow torch to get into, dvd's/cds are covered with security stickers, etc... They have plenty of security steps in place.

Searching my bags with no probable cause won't be one of them. I give them a polite "No thank you." on the way out and have never been questioned. If they think that is a probable cause to call the police, then they better be prepared for a legal fight. Just because I have nothing to hide doesn't give them the right to search me.

 

[motorman4life]

Searching my bags with no probable cause won't be one of them. I give them a polite "No thank you." on the way out and have never been questioned. If they think that is a probably cause to call the police, then they better be prepared for a legal fight. Just because I have nothing to hide doesn't give them the right to search me.

One of my pet-peeves is being detained exiting CompUSA, Fry's, Kmart, Wal-Mart or any other public place... without probable cause.

Yes, I understand, COSTCO is a co-op and I have consented to the delay/intrusion as a condition of membership. I don't have an issue with that.

But, I have been seriously harassed exiting CompUSA and Kmart. Both times, attendants got in my face for refusing to be detained. Both times I told them to "tell me I am under arrest or back down" and both times they responded to the contempt by following me out to the parking lot and taking down my plate number.

I have also been insignificantly harassed exiting Fry's and Wal-Mart in the past. In all cases, I had done absolutely nothing wrong and I simply refused to allow them to unlawfully detain me. I made it clear I was not going to consent to being stopped and I was not going to "show" my receipt or merchandise or otherwise submit to any non-consensual intrusion. Of course, it helped that I had nothing to hide and if they had arrested me, they would have been 100% in the wrong.

Loss prevention officers usually attempt to gain "voluntary" compliance. In some cases, they will make a citizen's arrest if pressed or after they have collected overwhelming evidence of a crime through the course of voluntary interrogation and searches.


Of course, a citizen's arrest can be made within the law (specifically, as per CA Penal Code § 837), under one of 3 conditions:

1. A public offense was committed or attempted in the citizen's presence.

2. The person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the citizen's presence.

3. A felony has been in fact committed and the citizen has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested has committed it.


They cannot lawfully detain you or use any force unless they are placing you under arrest or in a case where you are threatening an unlawful use of force.

While an arrest is nothing more than one person exercising lawful authority to detain and another submitting to that authority, if they B.S. you into stopping or complying (without actually telling you that you are being placed under arrest), then in all likelihood, the law will deem you have stopped on your own. Some things you may hear are "we have called the police" or "we need you to come with us to our office to clear this up" or "I'm sure this is all a misunderstanding, if you will cooperate, we can clear this up" or "it is store policy..."

If you have any doubt as to whether you are being arrested, ask directly if you are under arrest. If they do not immediately respond in the affirmative, then just go about your business. If it comes down to it and they want you stopped and will not "say" the words, then I would consider letting them use unlawful physical force to impose a de-facto arrest. I would not demand or encourage them to do so (as that could be taken as a challenge to fight under 415 PC), but I would make it clear I am not consenting to a detention or questioning and and if they want my cooperation, they will need to place me under arrest.

OTOH, if they tell you that you ARE under arrest, ask if they are acting as a individual or as an "authorized agent" of the store/business or premises (this response may come in handy later). In any case, if they say you are under arrest or advise they are placing you under citizen's arrest, comply with their orders while demanding they call the police immediately (or do it yourself if they will let you) and additionally demand they turn you over to the police without delay. Be sure to note the time.. in fact, say the time out loud and write it down if you can.

You may also want to remind them that California law requires that a private person who has arrested another for the commission of a public offense must, without unnecessary delay, take the person arrested before a magistrate or deliver him or her to a peace officer (as per CA Penal Code §847).

No doubt, this may raise more questions than it answered. No PM's please. Ask questions in the thread. But first, please read the article below as well as the CA Penal Code sections referenced above.

Anyhow, here is a good article on the topic:
http://www.criminalattorney.com/pages/firm_articles_citizens_arrest.htm

 

[Aluisious]

FYI: Pretty sure you do not need a membership to go inside and eat there. Only to buy merchandise.

Nope, you need a membership just to enter.

So says my local Costco.

Here's how it went down:

Me: -try to walk in store-
Employee: Can I see your membership card?
M: I don't have one.
E: I can't allow you to enter.
M: How could I join without entering?
E: You can talk to -some office somewhere-
M: Yeah, but without going in there just to browse, how do I know if I even want to join?
E: That's your problem.
M: My problem? It's my money!
-turn around and leave-

Costco is WalMart for commies.

 

[Aluisious]

BTW, if you do get unlawfully detained by a private corporation, be glad, because you're going to get rich when you sue them.

Unlawful detention is an extremely serious crime.

 

[Aluisious]

Code 3 has it. To sum it up, the constitution does not protect you one iota from private parties, only from government.

Wrong.

The Bill of Rights protects you from the government.

Plenty of other parts of the Constitution do have to do with private party interactions.

 

[imaverb]

Loss prevention officers usually attempt to gain "voluntary" compliance. In some cases, they will make a citizen's arrest if pressed or after they have collected overwhelming evidence of a crime through the course of voluntary interrogation and searches.

That is 100% how LP works. (Police operate this way a lot too.) They won't step outside their boundaries, but since most people don't know specifically what those boundaries are, they can pressure/trick you into giving up your own rights.

As a side note, it's rather amusing how much of the same thing was repeated over and over in this thread...

 

[Aluisious]

Since I carry a big motobag everywhere I pay attention to the signs and heed them. Getting bent about retail store security is equivalent to complaining to the IRS. They just don't care.

If you DO have something to hide, you should stay at home. I've forgotten about loose .22 rounds in my bag and discovered them at school/work. Just a handful, but a felony in any case. Same with the folder. Over 2" and locking blade on school grounds (anywhere in CA.) too: a felony. I only spilled to the SRO the latter and he said "leave it at home".

Your attitude and defiance only brings heat, not light. Suggest an attitude adjustment and change of venue. Fixed...NApe

Dude, having ammo at work is not a felony.

 

[RolnCode3]

Wrong.

The Bill of Rights protects you from the government.

Plenty of other parts of the Constitution do have to do with private party interactions.

Point of fact - I thought the same thing when I read the post, but didn't want to lead the discussion down that path. Generalized, though, it is primarily designed to prevent intrusions by the Gov't.

Civil rights was the first thing I thought of...but, like I said, didn't want to take the discussion on a tangent.

 

[Razel]

Dude, having ammo at work is not a felony.

If he works at a public school?