Cornering Theory (split from High side thread in Crash Analysis)

[Var]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zNUPDmnz4&feature=related

 

[Burning1]

So where does that leave trail braking? Are you saying that trail braking is wrong and should never be used?

Trail braking should end before the bike reaches it's maximum lean angle.

Frankly, I think trail braking is one of the most abused techniques in motorcycling. I rarely see it performed properly.

 

[Holeshot]

How can you tell if it's being performed properly? Trail braking can be used to tighten a line as well...from the front or the rear brake. Simply put, a good rule of thumb is to give away brake as one adds lean angle.

 

[Archimedes]

So where does that leave trail braking? Are you saying that trail braking is wrong and should never be used?

Wasn't even commenting on it. I was commenting on the idea of using neutral throttle all the way through the turn, which is not a good practice. Whether you trail brake to the apex or get all your braking done before you turn in, once you get on the throttle, you accelerate through the turn. You don't hold the throttle constant. That was my point.

 

[Burning1]

How can you tell if it's being performed properly? Trail braking can be used to tighten a line as well...from the front or the rear brake. Simply put, a good rule of thumb is to give away brake as one adds lean angle.

In my opinion, if you need to tighten up a line then you've already botched the corner. Braking halfway through a turn because you made a mistake at the entrance is not proper use of trail braking.

Edit: I do agree with your comment about gradually releasing the brake as lean angle increases.

 

[flying_hun]

In my opinion, if you need to tighten up a line then you've already botched the corner. Braking halfway through a turn because you made a mistake at the entrance is not proper use of trail braking.

Okay. But once it's botched in your scenario, one still needs a tool to correct it, wouldn't you agree?

Trail braking just seems like one other tool in the toolbox. In my mechanical toolbox I've got an EZ-out. If I need it, things are already botched, but it's sure nice to have once that need arises.

 

[Burning1]

Okay. But once it's botched in your scenario, one still needs a tool to correct it, wouldn't you agree?

Trail braking just seems like one other tool in the toolbox. In my mechanical toolbox I've got an EZ-out. If I need it, things are already botched, but it's sure nice to have once that need arises.

I totally agree, although I don't believe that the technique being discussed here is really the best one for that situation. I've yet to read a book that recommends recovering from high entrance speeds using the brakes.

Generally rolling off the throttle is sufficient to get the bike turned more.

I would use my brakes during a corner for the following 2 situations:

1. The road is obstructed by slower moving traffic, animals, debris, etc.
2. The turn sharpens significantly.

Both of these should only happen if I make a pretty significant judgment error when entering the turn.

 

[Archimedes]

Okay. But once it's botched in your scenario, one still needs a tool to correct it, wouldn't you agree?

Trail braking just seems like one other tool in the toolbox. In my mechanical toolbox I've got an EZ-out. If I need it, things are already botched, but it's sure nice to have once that need arises.

At that point, I wouldn't call it trail braking. I'd just call it braking or, in the worst case, panic braking. Trail braking is intentionally dragging your brakes to the apex to essentially extend part of your braking into the turn and to try to keep the suspension planted during the transition to getting on the gas.

There are pros and cons of trail braking and most people don't actually do it effectively anyway. For those that don't really do it effectively, I think it's a bad habit and actually holds people back in their skills development. I've always much preferred Codes approach to riding than Freddy Spencer's drag it to the apex approach. Again, there are pros and cons and different people have success with different approaches.

All that said, however long you brake, once you get back into the throttle you should be accelerating.

 

[Enchanter]

Wasn't even commenting on it. I was commenting on the idea of using neutral throttle all the way through the turn, which is not a good practice. Whether you trail brake to the apex or get all your braking done before you turn in, once you get on the throttle, you accelerate through the turn. You don't hold the throttle constant. That was my point.

But you wrote:

You surely don't want to wack the throttle, but from the instant you lean the bike, you want to be accelerating smoothly and progressively through the turn.

Can you see where your initial post indicates something entirely different than your second explanation?

 

[Var]

i got a question..what if you trailbrake into a corner, let's say it's a long sweeper.

You get to your max lean angle, let off the brakes and roll onto maintenance throttle. But you're not accelerating cause it would make your line wider than you want it. are you still supposed to be accelerating?

 

[NoQuarter]

...
There are pros and cons of trail braking and most people don't actually do it effectively anyway. For those that don't really do it effectively, I think it's a bad habit and actually holds people back in their skills development. I've always much preferred Codes approach to riding than Freddy Spencer's drag it to the apex approach. ...

Having learned from both, I just don't get that claim. Developing the skill to trail the brakes into a corner gives the rider more control, period. Code's responses to student's asking "what do i do if i get into a corner too hot?" was limited to two answers: 1. Don't get into a corner too hot (duh) and 2. Add more lean angle, you'll be surprised at how far these modern bikes can lean.

Neither response addresses the issue in my opinion. Too hot happens. Dealing with it can either be smooth and controlled or panicked and sloppy. Trailing the brakes into corners is exactly the same as smoothly rolling on the throttle out of them. The suspension, tires, chassis... all work best when the rider is smooth and controlled.

I liked Code's school, and he has some innovative drills that help build good throttle control skills, but the concerted disregard for good braking techniques just seems very, very outdated. I mean, maybe the turn and burn was the only fast way to ride bikes back then, when tires and suspensions were super shitty, but not these days.

 

[Holeshot]

Burning1, in some areas I'd say you're correct...that the need to tighten a line means a botched corner. However, some decreasing radius corners require a tightening of the line right before the apex...Miller Motorsports has a decreasing radius into an increasing radius (that track RULES BTW!)...and the quick line is to sit off the curbing a few feet, but there are times when one wants to tighten the line to set up a pass for the next, increasing radius corner.

So there exist scenarios, where tightening ones line has a benefit, and does not mean one has missed the apex/ screwed the turn.

 

[Zachary]

from what I have seen

You accelerate coming out of the turn. You go in steady, lean and once your already coming back up, that is when you accelerate smoothly out of the turn. You dont want to accelerate in the apex.

 

[Holeshot]

Why would you not want to accelerate at the apex? What if the turn is an early apex?

 

[Archimedes]

But you wrote:


Can you see where your initial post indicates something entirely different than your second explanation?

Retentive type ain't ya. My meaning was, from the point you get back on the throttle. As a non-trail braker, that would be right after I heel it over to full lean. Yes, for a trail braker that would be the point at which you get back on the throttle.

 

[Burning1]

i got a question..what if you trailbrake into a corner, let's say it's a long sweeper.

You get to your max lean angle, let off the brakes and roll onto maintenance throttle. But you're not accelerating cause it would make your line wider than you want it. are you still supposed to be accelerating?

IMO, there are two different ways to apply the technique...

1. In most single corners, exit speed should be your primary concern. The longer the straight, the more critical exit speed is. Not much trail braking can be used, because a hard drive to the exit usually works best with a quick turn-in.

On these corners, a little bit of trail braking can be used, but it should not be used in a way that would negatively effect your lines (or your drive.) You should still roll on the throttle during the exit.

If you find yourself running off the of road, and can't begin the drive, you will certainly loose position during a race.

2. In a series of corners, more trail braking can be used.

In a series 2 or more corners, it's possible to early apex the corner, and use trail braking to slow the bike enough to keep it between the lines. Because there is no drive, set-up for the next corner might be more important than exit speed (depending on the situation.) Maximum lean angle is delayed in order to keep speed higher at the corner entrance. This technique should not be used when it would effect your drive off of the final corner in the series.

This technique is very effective when there are two right (or left) hand corners connected by a very short straight. I prefer it to what is commonly called a "double apex."

A long sweeper, such as in your example, is more like case one than two. The best bet (in my opinion) is to keep corner speed high and to hit maximum lean angle ASAP.

Turn 2 of Thunder Hill is a great example.

 

[Archimedes]

Having learned from both, I just don't get that claim. Developing the skill to trail the brakes into a corner gives the rider more control, period. Code's responses to student's asking "what do i do if i get into a corner too hot?" was limited to two answers: 1. Don't get into a corner too hot (duh) and 2. Add more lean angle, you'll be surprised at how far these modern bikes can lean.

Neither response addresses the issue in my opinion. Too hot happens. Dealing with it can either be smooth and controlled or panicked and sloppy. Trailing the brakes into corners is exactly the same as smoothly rolling on the throttle out of them. The suspension, tires, chassis... all work best when the rider is smooth and controlled.

I liked Code's school, and he has some innovative drills that help build good throttle control skills, but the concerted disregard for good braking techniques just seems very, very outdated. I mean, maybe the turn and burn was the only fast way to ride bikes back then, when tires and suspensions were super shitty, but not these days.

Code's philosophy is not about how you ride when you've screwed up. It's about how you should ride, so you don't screw up. If you keep a little lean angle in reserve, and you're in too hot, you can just lean it over and get on the gas and you will tighten up your line. Leaning the bike tightens the line. You need more speed to hold more lean angle. Code's school doesn't disregard braking at all, he just doesn't promote trail braking.

Back to the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying either was right or wrong. I was, however, saying that the average rider doesn't know how to trail brake effectively, so it's wasted effort and in many cases only increases the likelihood of a lowside for a less experienced rider. Again, I'm not talking about very experienced riders/racers. I'm talking about Joe average rider. Joe Average rider doesn't come on and off his brakes very well to begin with, so I can't see how asking him to do that at lean in a corner, etc., is a good idea. They'll tend to overbrake, underbrake and then panic, and just generally be too damn busy for their own good. Again, Joe Average not Johnny Afmer. I fully expect that a trail braking racer will walk away from someone like me on the track, but I also notice that I carry consistently higher corner entry (and exit) speeds than a lot of guys in my group at track days who are busy braking way too much and way too long. And I don't say that like I'm faster than anybody, I just think most people don't know how to use their brakes all that well and trail braking effectively is an advanced braking technique.

I used to do it all the time, but found I was way smoother and faster using Code's approach. Everyone does things a little differently. I say, whatever gets it done for you is what you should do. But the average rider would be a better rider if they spent more of their focus, time and energy on throttle control than on advanced braking techniques.

 

[Burning1]

Burning1, in some areas I'd say you're correct...that the need to tighten a line means a botched corner. However, some decreasing radius corners require a tightening of the line right before the apex...Miller Motorsports has a decreasing radius into an increasing radius (that track RULES BTW!)...and the quick line is to sit off the curbing a few feet, but there are times when one wants to tighten the line to set up a pass for the next, increasing radius corner.

So there exist scenarios, where tightening ones line has a benefit, and does not mean one has missed the apex/ screwed the turn.

In my opinion:
For a decreasing radius turn, the best technique is to use an extremely late apex and the correct entrance speed.

There's a nice DR on Highway 9 that often puts people across the double yellow. I use this method on that turn, with great results.

This assumes the decreasing radius turn was expected (which often isn't the case.) I might trail brake for a surprise DR.

 

[Archimedes]

You accelerate coming out of the turn. You go in steady, lean and once your already coming back up, that is when you accelerate smoothly out of the turn. You dont want to accelerate in the apex.

errr, what? You want to get back on the throttle immediately, no later than the apex and power all the way out. If you are not on the brakes, or in the process of leaning over (which should be quick), you should be back on the throttle. You should match throttle to lean angle and be judicious about it, but you should be accelerating as soon as possible.

 

[Burning1]

Neither response addresses the issue in my opinion. Too hot happens. Dealing with it can either be smooth and controlled or panicked and sloppy. Trailing the brakes into corners is exactly the same as smoothly rolling on the throttle out of them. The suspension, tires, chassis... all work best when the rider is smooth and controlled.

The problem is that if you've truly committed to the turn too hot, braking will cause you to crash instantly. If you have enough traction to brake, you've got plenty of traction to turn. If you've got no traction to turn, you've got no traction to brake.

In my opinion, turning harder is usually the best choice. At least then there's a chance to make the corner. At worst, you'll lowside.

Of course, there are always other options. Often, it's possible to recover at the cost of the drive at corner exit. Expert drivers may recover by sliding their rear for little more turn in.