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Dedicated Left-Turn Lane Question
- Thread starter cpmajai
- Start date
It doesn’t matter how long the turn pocket is, or how long you drive in the lane to get to the turn pocket, it’s illegal to drive in a 2-way turn lane to get to a turn pocket. The lane only allows for turning to or from the roadway to or from private property or to make a lawful u-turn. The 200 feet only applies to vehicles that are making turns onto private property, and then they can not use the lane for more than 200 feet to complete such a turn.
If you use a 2-way turn lane to get to a turn pocket it doesn’t matter if its 5 feet or 500 feet, it’s illegal of your vehicle does not physically leave the highway.
360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. Highway includes street.
People often misunderstand the term "Highway". It refers to any land that is publicly maintained for traffic. This includes Freeways, streets, roadways, sidewalks, medians, shoulders, grass strips on the right side of the roadway, Ect.
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165689
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Work: BMW R1250RT-P
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Ok, so this picture is an example of an area (one of several) in my city that shows a two way left turn center lane going into a designated left turn lane at an intersection. The posted speed limit is 45 MPH. In order to enter into the designated left turn lane safely, a driver would have to first enter into the two way left turn lane OR make an abrupt maneuver over the solid white line into the designated left turn lane.
21460.5(c) V.C. says you can use the two way left turn lane to make a left turn from or into a highway. I just don't understand how it could be a violation to first enter into the lane to get to the designated left turn lane. If so, how would a driver obey the law based on the picture posted?
(I know, not the best picture.
)
21460.5(c) V.C. says you can use the two way left turn lane to make a left turn from or into a highway. I just don't understand how it could be a violation to first enter into the lane to get to the designated left turn lane. If so, how would a driver obey the law based on the picture posted?
(I know, not the best picture.
)Attachments
i still don't see anything in the law you cited which says anything about crossing into a turn pocket or not, though perhaps there's some other section (on turn pockets?) which does.
let's take the example of a road with a 100' turn pocket. at 150' from the intersection, i enter the suicide lane, "preparing" to turn left. 150' later (which is less than 200' later), I turn left. what have I done wrong?
i suspect 'highway' must be a red herring here and really discussing turning from a particular highway to any other location. let's say the left turn pocket is for a private shopping mall. or alternately, i've seen two way left turn lanes used for intersections between major public roads and minor public roads, e.g. valencia and liberty in sf.
let's take the example of a road with a 100' turn pocket. at 150' from the intersection, i enter the suicide lane, "preparing" to turn left. 150' later (which is less than 200' later), I turn left. what have I done wrong?
i suspect 'highway' must be a red herring here and really discussing turning from a particular highway to any other location. let's say the left turn pocket is for a private shopping mall. or alternately, i've seen two way left turn lanes used for intersections between major public roads and minor public roads, e.g. valencia and liberty in sf.
Warrior Princess
Freedom Equity Group
I don't mean to be a smart ass, but this code got me to thinking.
Question: If 21460.5(c) ...A vehicle shall not be driven in a designated two-way left-turn lane except when preparing for or making a left turn from or into a highway (What if I decided not to make the turn?) ...and shall not be driven in that lane for more than 200 feet while ...preparing to merge into the adjacent lanes of travel. (Does this mean I could merge back into the adjacent lanes of travel after changing my mind in making the left hand turn as long as it was within the 200 feet?) or (200 feet for the left turn I decided not to make plus the 200 feet for merging into the adjacent lanes?) or (am I just stuck in the lane?)
Question: If 21460.5(c) ...A vehicle shall not be driven in a designated two-way left-turn lane except when preparing for or making a left turn from or into a highway (What if I decided not to make the turn?) ...and shall not be driven in that lane for more than 200 feet while ...preparing to merge into the adjacent lanes of travel. (Does this mean I could merge back into the adjacent lanes of travel after changing my mind in making the left hand turn as long as it was within the 200 feet?) or (200 feet for the left turn I decided not to make plus the 200 feet for merging into the adjacent lanes?) or (am I just stuck in the lane?)
Ok, so this picture is an example of an area (one of several) in my city that shows a two way left turn center lane going into a designated left turn lane at an intersection. The posted speed limit is 45 MPH. In order to enter into the designated left turn lane safely, a driver would have to first enter into the two way left turn lane OR make an abrupt maneuver over the solid white line into the designated left turn lane.
21460.5(c) V.C. says you can use the two way left turn lane to make a left turn from or into a highway. I just don't understand how it could be a violation to first enter into the lane to get to the designated left turn lane. If so, how would a driver obey the law based on the picture posted?
(I know, not the best picture.
Legally you have to cross where the yellows stop and the white begins. I have never see a lane like that in my city, bad design and something you might want to bring up to your city engineering department.
Ok I have reposted the sections again with the info in red. It states you cannot drive in a 2-way turn lane except to turn left from or into a highway. The definition of a highway is any part of the public road, sidewalk, shoulder, ect. So you have to either leave the highway (To private property) or be entering the highway (from private property) OR to make a legal u-turn. So if you use the lane and never leave the highway or make a legal u-turn, you are in violation.
If you use the 2-way turn lane to get to a turn lane/pocket and then make a left turn at the intersection and continue on the street, you have not left the highway and are in violation.
The 200 feet part only applies when you use the 2-way turn lane lawfully to make a turn into or from the highway to private property, or a legal u-turn, and then you can not use the lane for more that 200 feet to make such a turn.
If you decide that you don't want to turn, then you have to turn off the highway anyway and then enter back onto the highway the direction you wanted to go, if you merge back into traffic you are in violation. Just as if you got into a left or right turn lane and then decided not to turn and went straight, its a violation of 22101(d) VC. You are required to complete the turn and then find another route back to the direction you wanted to go.
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That was exactly my point. I should have taken a picture of the left turn lane behind me. On that one, the white line for the turn lane is literally touching the double solid-dashed line of the two way left turn lane with no space in between.
At a speed limit of 45 MPH, I find it very unsafe to have vehicles merge into the left turn lanes at the last minute crossing the solid white. I would rather have them first enter the two-way left turn lane and then proceed into the left turn lane. That is what I do and probably 99% of the vehicles along that road as well. I would not issue a citation for that section along that road and I guess it probably does come down to a bad engineering design in the first place.
Thanks for the input JPM!
That was exactly my point. I should have taken a picture of the left turn lane behind me. On that one, the white line for the turn lane is literally touching the double solid-dashed line of the two way left turn lane with no space in between.
At a speed limit of 45 MPH, I find it very unsafe to have vehicles merge into the left turn lanes at the last minute crossing the solid white. I would rather have them first enter the two-way left turn lane and then proceed into the left turn lane. That is what I do and probably 99% of the vehicles along that road as well. I would not issue a citation for that section along that road and I guess it probably does come down to a bad engineering design in the first place.
Thanks for the input JPM!
Its all about the three E's of traffic; Education, Enforcement, and Engineering. When you see a bad engineering problem you do something to get it resolved, not just enforcement all the time.
From what you're saying, the correct way to turn left from Valencia to Liberty street (try that link--it's a google maps overhead view) is from the right lane, because the left lane is only for use when entering or exiting the highway system?
I'm not familiar with that intersection and the Google map is not that good. It appears the 2-way turn lane ends before the intersection therefore in the intersection there is no right lane, only one lane for each direction. Making a turn from the one traffic lane is perfectly legal.
yes, the two way turn lane ends such that you could turn from the right lane, but i doubt anyone expects you to do that unless the center lane is being used a parking strip (which it usually is)
this may also be one of those California only things. Here's an aerial view of an intersection on US 1 in Maine:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...459,-70.589881&spn=0.001035,0.002414&t=k&z=19
(Why there, you ask? Because somewhere near there is the only place I've been in a near accident due to those lanes.)
Edit: Another example, this time in PA (again, I've driven on this road before.)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...543,-75.214494&spn=0.001134,0.002414&t=k&z=19
Note how they stripe out the lanes when you aren't supposed to cross. That area also has streetview for better pictures.
this may also be one of those California only things. Here's an aerial view of an intersection on US 1 in Maine:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...459,-70.589881&spn=0.001035,0.002414&t=k&z=19
(Why there, you ask? Because somewhere near there is the only place I've been in a near accident due to those lanes.)
Edit: Another example, this time in PA (again, I've driven on this road before.)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...543,-75.214494&spn=0.001134,0.002414&t=k&z=19
Note how they stripe out the lanes when you aren't supposed to cross. That area also has streetview for better pictures.
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silversvs
Lean, Twist, repeat.....
Ok, so this picture is an example of an area (one of several) in my city that shows a two way left turn center lane going into a designated left turn lane at an intersection. The posted speed limit is 45 MPH. In order to enter into the designated left turn lane safely, a driver would have to first enter into the two way left turn lane OR make an abrupt maneuver over the solid white line into the designated left turn lane.
21460.5(c) V.C. says you can use the two way left turn lane to make a left turn from or into a highway. I just don't understand how it could be a violation to first enter into the lane to get to the designated left turn lane. If so, how would a driver obey the law based on the picture posted?
(I know, not the best picture.
As JPM mentioned, that is a crappy design. We don't have that set up in our city.
If driver A is following the rules and waits to enter the left turn pocket until the turn pocket begins, thereby not crossing over the solid yellow, driver A should not have to worry about another driver bombing the two way left turn lane to get to the turn pocket.
That looks like a collision waiting to happen.
silversvs
Lean, Twist, repeat.....
here is a good example of a two way left turn lane ending at a left turn pocket. No confusion for drivers as to what is expected.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...p=12,114.55306699988023,,0,19.573444502905644
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...p=12,114.55306699988023,,0,19.573444502905644
arnoha
New member
There's a slightly different situation that I often face. What if you've completed a left hand turn into a suicide lane, but intend to take a left turn pocket within 200' after the turn. Can I proceed directly from my left into the lane into the left turn pocket, assuming that the suicide lane doesn't pinch into a double yellow as it doesn't in the photos above? Or do I have to briefly merge back into the #1 lane and then cut back to the pocket?
Ok, so this picture is an example of an area (one of several) in my city that shows a two way left turn center lane going into a designated left turn lane at an intersection. The posted speed limit is 45 MPH. In order to enter into the designated left turn lane safely, a driver would have to first enter into the two way left turn lane OR make an abrupt maneuver over the solid white line into the designated left turn lane.
21460.5(c) V.C. says you can use the two way left turn lane to make a left turn from or into a highway. I just don't understand how it could be a violation to first enter into the lane to get to the designated left turn lane. If so, how would a driver obey the law based on the picture posted?
(I know, not the best picture.
So I happened to be flipping through the web version of the MUTCD today...you might want to refer your city's engineers to this figure:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/HTM/2003r1/part3/fig3b-07_longdesc.htm
Based on DOT's sample markings and description, you could probably make a case that where the dashed turn lane markings end, and the solid double yellow center markings begin is where it's acceptable to transition into the turn lane -- the text indicates an expectation that the turn lane markings end at the same place and that the rest of the markings are symmetric.
I have not yet found any indication of how large the break should be but I'd imagine at least a couple of car lengths based on that diagram. The legend indicates 8-16' between sets of markings and there are approximately two sets of them in the gap between markings.
Hope that's helpful...I agree those are terrible markings.
EDIT:
Here's an additional reference... the markings section of the CA MUTCD:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/mutcdsupp/pdf/camutcd/CAMUTCD-Part3.pdf
Turn lanes are section 3B 26... Page 3B 55:
CA MUTCD specifies a minimum length of 100' for the solid double yellow center markings, and 50' for the solid white line, but no apparent maximum.
The CA MUTCD also incorporates the diagram I linked previously whole and unmodified.
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You are supposed to enter the traffic lane then get into the turn pocket at the opening to the turn pocket.
Keep in mind the reason these 2-way turn lanes are enforced are when they are used for passing lanes when traffic is heavy, causing an unsafe condition. If there is no traffic around and you drive out of a driveway and use the 2-way turn lane to drive 20 feet to get to the left turn pocket you most likely won't have a problem. When people use them for a block or two to pass stopped traffic to get to the turn lane, then you will get a ticket.
funny---that diagram looks exactly like the corner of valencia and liberty i linked earlier: a minor cross street is expected (by federal dot) to use a 2-way left turn lane, and a major street can have a turn pocket either protected by a double yellow line, or just 'open' from a 2-way left turn lane. note that the second one (on page 3B-35 of the california manual) is explicitly called out as having 'unlimited storage'.
of course the highway marking diagram doesn't supercede state law, but i still think the 'off the highway' stuff is odd.
edit: ah, a california example in mountain view. A short 2-way left turn lane with 'unlimited storage' in both directions and a turn from a major street onto a minor street which doesn't even have a break in the yellow line. note that cars do frequently back up the entire 180' of the #2 left turn lane and often pull into the 2-way turn lane at about 200' from el camino to get into the #1 left turn lane. a bit of a mess, but i never actually saw real problems when i went through that intersection (used to be frequent).
(and yes i expect people to mostly be cited for doing obviously dumb things, not simple things like merging earlier to avoid swerving at higher speeds.)
(speaking of which, do people ever get cited for cutting across lines in a double turn lane?)
of course the highway marking diagram doesn't supercede state law, but i still think the 'off the highway' stuff is odd.
edit: ah, a california example in mountain view. A short 2-way left turn lane with 'unlimited storage' in both directions and a turn from a major street onto a minor street which doesn't even have a break in the yellow line. note that cars do frequently back up the entire 180' of the #2 left turn lane and often pull into the 2-way turn lane at about 200' from el camino to get into the #1 left turn lane. a bit of a mess, but i never actually saw real problems when i went through that intersection (used to be frequent).
(and yes i expect people to mostly be cited for doing obviously dumb things, not simple things like merging earlier to avoid swerving at higher speeds.)
(speaking of which, do people ever get cited for cutting across lines in a double turn lane?)
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You've answered your own question... while the MUTCD is incorporated by reference in the law, nothing in it supersedes state law.
It's not intended to regulate traffic, but it is intended to allow traffic engineers to make their intent clear.
You can drive from coast to coast in this country and not be confused by any of the markings on the way.