Do Harley's Attract More Women?

[louemc]

Easy there Mister Helper. Relax.



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[Xanthoria]

Let's be quite clear here - this is counseling the abused to not react to people abusing them. A basic modicum of respect for others is all that should be needed to make it very clear that making rape jokes in a public setting is completely inappropriate for a variety of reasons. Arguing that people that have been abused have an obligation to those who would make rape jokes to "not react emotionally" is complete fucking bullshit in the same way that it's complete fucking bullshit to tell a minority not to get offended when someone calls them a wetback, a nigger, or some other racial slur. The person who said the words has a responsibility to make sure those words are appropriate for that audience, and any reaction they may get because they didn't properly think through who their audience actually is is completely deserved.

The starter for the behavior here isn't the person who's been abused lashing out and "needing to control their emotions" (ie, an abused person lashing out for no reason), it's someone making an insensitive comment, and then that person rightly being called on their shit behavior. Free speech puts the responsibility of what is said on the speaker - if you don't like the idea that someone's going to politely tell you to stop, don't make a fucking rape joke.

I'm sorry but intent is meaningless. You do shitty things, you own those shitty things, and you try and make up for them by undoing the harm that you did. Claiming "but I didn't MEAN it" is just dropping your responsibility and dancing away without ever making a real, tangible effort to actually undo the harm you did. If you called everyone a nigger because that's just how you were raised and you didn't actually mean it like that, failing to examine that and change your behavior when you're called on it actually just makes you racist, because your actions continue to support and encourage racism in others. Same is true of sexism and rape jokes.

BARF isn't a living room, it's an auditorium - there's a lot more people listening then there are speaking. People should think about that, and if people want to make rape jokes and other offcolor jokes, there's plenty of other places on the internet where you can be in an environment that encourages that. Unsurprisingly, they're all cesspools.

I have to say this really sums it up. When Bud comes on and says "not taking rape seriously and joking about it is to me not cool and we would prefer you just pass up the chance to make a funny that some surely find disgusting" and the response is "people need therapy so they don't overreact" and "if I can't come on here and say anything I want I'm leaving" you're really misunderstanding online community. Do you make rape jokes in public? At work? To all the women you know? No - because you know on some level that it's weird and gross and unacceptable and the only reason you do it online is because it's anonymous and titillating and you're making yourself feel like you got away with something dangerous and sexy.

Would anyone here say that making rape jokes to women is likely to get you laid more often? Because that's what we have here - real life. If I came on here and made jokes about cutting off men's testicles how would that make you feel? Would you want to jump on my bike and go for a ride? Didn't think so.

 

[Lucky13xx]

oh noez, a blind person joke

I am outraged!!!!!

How could such an inconsiderate joke slip through the cracks? Do you know how many people without vision look at the internet? BARF has become a haven for pure genuine, soap box preaching hate speak. Even if you apologize, we all know that holds no relevance. You all disappoint me. There will be no healing until TOS address this issue of so called "jokes"

Is that where we're at?

 

[planegray]

I have to say this really sums it up. When Bud comes on and says "not taking rape seriously and joking about it is to me not cool and we would prefer you just pass up the chance to make a funny that some surely find disgusting" and the response is "people need therapy so they don't overreact" and "if I can't come on here and say anything I want I'm leaving" you're really misunderstanding online community. Do you make rape jokes in public? At work? To all the women you know? No - because you know on some level that it's weird and gross and unacceptable and the only reason you do it online is because it's anonymous and titillating and you're making yourself feel like you got away with something dangerous and sexy.

Would anyone here say that making rape jokes to women is likely to get you laid more often? Because that's what we have here - real life. If I came on here and made jokes about cutting off men's testicles how would that make you feel? Would you want to jump on my bike and go for a ride? Didn't think so.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure we DO joke about testicles being removed


My girlfriend said something similar to what you just posted... she mentioned that in todays corporate world people get fired for making "jokes" about subjects like rape, and if dudes were to pay attention here, they may just be saving their own job.

edit: oh yeah, and the discussion we had on these subjects (provoked by this thread) was ANOTHER opportunity for me to learn how little I understand what it's like to be a woman. To be fair, my entire working career has been in a male dominated field (mechanic), but damn... who knew we are so sexist/misogynistic

 

[Lucky13xx]

If I came on here and made jokes about cutting off men's testicles how would that make you feel? Would you want to jump on my bike and go for a ride? Didn't think so.

Actually quite the opposite. I've never ridden on the back of a girls bike, but if you can make a lopped off testicle joke that makes me laugh......... What are you doing this weekend?

 

[jdan007]

The sarcasm: you missed it.

 

[budman]

Bud,

The topic got ugly and I guess triggered my "slippery slope mechanism" when there was a chloroform joke put in, and was responded with a harsh statistics education on rape. OP apologized and then it spun into offended zone.

I hope Im speaking for everyone. The act of rape is horrific and tragic. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, that goes for BOTH man or woman. Yes I have consoled many that have fallen to such a barbaric crime. Never with the attitude of "get over it"

Some of us though try not to carry life with such a heavy head on subjects like rape, death, child abuse, accidents or drug abuse. Please don't try to compare one of these personal tragedies to each other. Well drug abuse isn't as bad as rape. Accidents are awful, but death is worse. You aren't in the mind of the person suffering. Jokes are funny. Gallows humor has gotten me through the worst tragedies in my life and Ive had some biggies. Sometimes things are so dark and terrible all you can do is chuckle at it. The alternative is to lash out at anyone who dares to tread near the sensitive topic.

If we are want to really examine making a funny about subjects that are damaging and disgusting I can find numerous topics in the "jokes" section as well as any other thread that hit a little to close to home. I don't though because I understand the malicious intent isn't there. Plus I feel it would take something away from the board.

BARF seems to be a welcoming forum. For All sexes. Pretty good at policing itself and attracts some of the more level heads in the Bay Area. I do use it for more than just Q and A. I've met some genuinely good people here, Including you Bud. (Always thanks for BARF)

I love opposing view points and Im sure this little rant will trigger a few. So ball's in play.

Very well said. Really.

If Barf turned into the Disney Channel with Walt's Gestapo waiting on the sidelines to tackle you if your mouth slips, I'd have a hard time hanging around here anymore.

That is the line we have been dancing around for a while. I don’t want that either. I think the TOS needs no more soap in it to wash out any naughty words and such.

I think OP is getting flack for a couple reasons. While the idea for the thread is pretty lame, i think if it were made by a veteran member it wouldnt of had this response. I think its partly that op is new and from what Ive noticed, most of his posts are about trying to bang some chick or dating a stripper or trying to bone a pornstar. I think people are just reacting to a trend of somewhat lame postings from a new member.

I honestly don’t have anything to say about the OP.. we have seen this before and it can be a decent subject. Hell we are men and woman and we ride.
The post below pretty much sums it up nicely.

Nope. This discussion went beyond just one person and his tired-ass joke when the OP and others were called out and then doubled down on their idiocy. It morphed into a meta analysis of gender relations on BARF and motorcycle culture in general.

There was a lot of thoughtful reflection to go with the typical chest-thumping of a few select fragile male egos, so I'm encouraged by the exchange.

Z3n I am not going to quote you again, but that really is a good post…. Well said.

I do like the auditorium take.. Because it is truth!

Thanks for the banter about the subject. It is important at times to do this and no doubt we will do it again.

I am outraged!!!!!

There will be no healing until TOS address this issue of so called "jokes"

Is that where we're at?

Truth.. barf is playful.
We want to have fun and poke at each other.
It is a lot easier when you know the crowd to do that.
We have grown a bit over the years and it is not possible to know the crowd anymore, but we don't want to lose the poking... it will take away a huge part of the fun eh??

 

[Z3n]

A lopped off testicle joke doesn't come with a backing of real sexualized violence against men. A rape joke does have that backing against women.

This is why intent is irrelevant - intent is founded on your experiences. Outcome is based on theirs. Ultimately, claiming the intent is more important or mitigates what you have done puts your experiences and your feelings over the person you have hurt. A welcoming environment, by nature, doesn't tell others they have to live up to someone else's standards - it respects each one individually, and prohibits things that contribute little to nothing to the community while doing serious damage to its environment.

Remember, at the end of the day - I can't call people assholes here without getting banned. So at some point, someone could come on here, claim to they're going to rape someone, and then if that person calls them an asshole, they get banned. Is that a respectful environment? Fuck no. I know which side of that reality I want to stand on.

 

[Ant]

What about when the barf atheists go ballistic as soon as anything remotely religious gets posted? Freedom of speech I understand but why is it ok to gang up and call people stupid for their beliefs? Yes there is tons of hypocrisy and shitty things that have been done (and still goes on) in the name of religion but it doesn't apply to everyone who has religious beliefs.

Bashing,trashing and insulting a person for their lifestyle beliefs has driven off barfers as well as the misogyny comments. I'm not suggesting censorship btw, just a wee tiny bit of common courtesy. You can get your point across without lumping everyone into the same category.

 

[Z3n]

Oh, and planegray - I dont think you're at all a bad person - I just think I've had a bit more of a chance to learn about the gender dynamics of our society. It's a harsh awakening
however, I do think you go wrong at one point - you control what you say as well. You can choose and do, to post one thing rather than another. That's part of the respect for others. The difference between us is that I expect that respect be clearly defined up front - it's better for everyone.

 

[Z3n]

Also to those who say the jokes go away - they don't, they get better when people are forced to go beyond aimlessly repeating "rape lol" or "shock value lol".

 

[planegray]

Oh, and planegray - I dont think you're at all a bad person - I just think I've had a bit more of a chance to learn about the gender dynamics of our society. It's a harsh awakening
however, I do think you go wrong at one point - you control what you say as well. You can choose and do, to post one thing rather than another. That's part of the respect for others. The difference between us is that I expect that respect be clearly defined up front - it's better for everyone.

Thanks

Also to those who say the jokes go away - they don't, they get better when people are forced to go beyond aimlessly repeating "rape lol" or "shock value lol".

No disagreement here. I hope you know that Budman is 100% serious on this issue, and mods are right there with him. Without naming names, I can tell you that there have been a few people who've managed to get themselves booted off of barf for not understanding that "no means no".

I hope that members will continue to have patience and respect for each other, and understand that with such a large group of people instant change is difficult and fraught with challenges.

 

[Lunch Box]

What about when the barf atheists go ballistic as soon as anything remotely religious gets posted? Freedom of speech I understand but why is it ok to gang up and call people stupid for their beliefs? Yes there is tons of hypocrisy and shitty things that have been done (and still goes on) in the name of religion but it doesn't apply to everyone who has religious beliefs.

Bashing,trashing and insulting a person for their lifestyle beliefs has driven off barfers as well as the misogyny comments. I'm not suggesting censorship btw, just a wee tiny bit of common courtesy. You can get your point across without lumping everyone into the same category.

I could not agree with you more. There are a lot of very outspoken atheists on the board. It's kind of sad to see how closed minded they are, and how they feel they have to belittle anyone who doesn't share their views. I am an atheist, but I am not about to start ramming my religious views down anyone's throat. That's one of the behaviors that turned me off of religion in the first place. It would seem hypocritical to perpetuate that sort of behavior. Also, I don't feel that I am any more or less intelligent than someone who is religious. It irks me every time I see someone called stupid because he/she believes in a higher power. It's not as though there is overwhelming empirical evidence that there is no God. If there were, then I would question the intelligence, or at least the logic, of someone who still chose to believe. The fact is that we simply can't prove or disprove the existence of God. Therefore, it is possible that he/she/it exists. As such, I feel that anyone who states definitively that there is zero possibility that a higher power exists is someone who has a closed mind and is not taking a truly scientific approach to the question. In short, they are doing exactly what they often accuse believers of doing.



TL;DR Version: I don't see what religious beliefs have to do with anything. Bashing someone for his/her beliefs is not acceptable behavior. Making flippant remarks or jokes about things like rape, which are incredibly damaging, is also unacceptable behavior. It all comes back to respect and to asking yourself before you post, "Would I say the same thing if this person were standing in front of me?"

 

[Z3n]

Planegray - absolutely. I think it speaks very highly of barf that this conversation has been generally taken seriously by everyone involved. Change is slow, but things have been going in the right direction. Probably why I can't just quit barf.

Also, while I'm glad grievous offenders have been addressed, any sort of justice should be transparent. Don't bend the rules to address the crime, change the rules if the crime is worth punishing. It sets the right standards for behavior.

 

[planegray]

.......Also, while I'm glad grievous offenders have been addressed, any sort of justice should be transparent. Don't bend the rules to address the crime, change the rules if the crime is worth punishing. It sets the right standards for behavior.

Not to worry, we stick to the tier system. Hard to believe but some folks still don't "get it" after 7 suspensions and up to 180 days off

Like you, this is one of the reasons I'm can't quit the barf.

 

[flying_hun]

Remember, at the end of the day - I can't call people assholes here without getting banned. So at some point, someone could come on here, claim to they're going to rape someone, and then if that person calls them an asshole, they get banned. Is that a respectful environment? Fuck no. I know which side of that reality I want to stand on.

Z3n, I've generally agreed with your posting in this thread, but I'm going to take exception to the above characterization. We walk a fine line in the MC when it comes to enforcing norms of behavior. In your scenario, if someone came on and threatened to rape another member, that's a threat of violence, and will be treated as one by the MC, and that generally results in a permaban.

One thing to keep in mind in your scenario is that if you called that person an asshole, the fact that he threatened rape does not mean you won't still be held accountable by the TOS. In that scenario, I'd vote for suspending (not permabanning) you for violating 4.1. There's no deserved-ness in considering TOS violations.

We've tried hard not to censor speech, and rather to enforce basic norms of courtesy between members. When the hateful speech is not aimed at another member, we've stayed away from taking action - with very few exceptions. I'm not always happy about it, but enforcing good judgment in all posts is not without potential unpleasant consequences.

Motorcycling is changing. More women being involved as riders is a good thing. More women are now "us" instead of "them". It's good for us to learn that motorcycling isn't the same "smokin' in the boys room" circle jerk it was when we were 15. Actually, the world has changed a lot since I was 15. A lot of the people who I used to see as "other" I now see as "like me".

It's been a long strange trip to unlearn those attitudes, and turn "other" into "like me", as the saying goes, enlarging my circle of concern. Now, I find myself wondering what it would be like to experience life from the points of view of all those previously "others". Then I begin to wonder how the things I do and say and take for granted are experienced outside of my narrow experience. It's interesting.

It suggests to me that while Karbon's joke was an issue, the context in when it would even be a joke - when others are by definition less-than - is actually the problem.

 

[Lucky13xx]

And out of this horrible wreckage comes healing.

 

[Z3n]

Flying_hun - totally fair to call that out as a mischaracterization - phone posting, so my responses are bit more general than I'd prefer.

2 quick thigs - one - thanks for making that effort to not just shut down when confronted with that "other" and actively working to change yourself for the better. Many never do.

2 - with rare exception, any threat of sexualized violence against men isn't actually a threat. About the only realistic rape threat for men is tied up in prison violence. Rape for women is something that can happen any time, any place, the perpetrator can (and often is) a known "friend", and sadly, it does. There is no joke that has that social weight, that personal responsibility that is equivalent for a man, as men are not raised with an attitude of responsibility and burden of their own sexuality as a social dichotomy (roughly summed up in the virgin and the whore social standard).

With that in mind, rape jokes are forever unwelcoming because they are nearly always at the expense of the victim of rape, and more importantly, there is no indicator of intent behind a rape joke. Rapists love rape jokes. Do you support it because free speech, because it's funny, because you're a rapist? How doesa woman know? Is that risk worth taking as a woman? Every woman lives under a ppersistent threat of sexualized violence in one form or another - part of being a welcoming community is rejecting the overt expressions of that.

That's the difference between rape jokes and jokes about religion, or anything else. Jokes that have a threat of common violence behind them are significantly more harmful than those that don't.

 

[danate]

Flying_hun - totally fair to call that out as a mischaracterization - phone posting, so my responses are bit more general than I'd prefer.

2 quick thigs - one - thanks for making that effort to not just shut down when confronted with that "other" and actively working to change yourself for the better. Many never do.

2 - with rare exception, any threat of sexualized violence against men isn't actually a threat. About the only realistic rape threat for men is tied up in prison violence. Rape for women is something that can happen any time, any place, the perpetrator can (and often is) a known "friend", and sadly, it does. There is no joke that has that social weight, that personal responsibility that is equivalent for a man, as men are not raised with an attitude of responsibility and burden of their own sexuality as a social dichotomy (roughly summed up in the virgin and the whore social standard).

With that in mind, rape jokes are forever unwelcoming because they are nearly always at the expense of the victim of rape, and more importantly, there is no indicator of intent behind a rape joke. Rapists love rape jokes. Do you support it because free speech, because it's funny, because you're a rapist? How doesa woman know? Is that risk worth taking as a woman? Every woman lives under a ppersistent threat of sexualized violence in one form or another - part of being a welcoming community is rejecting the overt expressions of that.

That's the difference between rape jokes and jokes about religion, or anything else. Jokes that have a threat of common violence behind them are significantly more harmful than those that don't.

There are actually more male rapes (outside of prison) than you'd think and many many more go unreported. I have responded to plenty in my 10 years of EMS and they have been some of the most horrific scenes I've ever seen. Often much more brutal than what I've seen happen to women.

Surely any joke that threatens violence to someone is not appropriate. Anything with perceived violence is not okay including rape, murder, beating etc. Guess, what: there are other jokes and even a time and place where a joke with the word rape in it may be funny. If that word triggers a bad memory for someone, than so be it. The word "cancer" I'm sure could bring some people to tears just hearing and thinking about it, but we don't censor it. My point is that we must be reasonable and try to limit overreactions based on hot topic words. This whole incident started with Karbon's seemingly self-deprecating joke about chloroform being the only way he gets chicks. It was dark and sarcastic and I got it. Some others didn't and reacted. Than others reacted to that and the snowball effect began.

My argument here is not about people threatening rape. Nobody on here threatened to rape anybody. Even Karbon apologized when he saw what it stirred up. That's what I call social moderation and is perfectly okay. Now it seems blown up to the point where Z3n is pushing to outlaw Karbon's horrific act (sarcasm) and create an ultra-sensitive environment where all must tiptoe around subjects to not hurt one's feelings. This is, after all, a motorcycle forum and one of the best behaved I've ever been on. The ones I've seen that are more heavily moderated have ended up being sparsely populated and the ones that are no holds barred have been insane and offensive. We don't need any more rules here and this thread probably needs to die soon. Z3n, I understand where you're coming from, but you're starting to sound like the "Won't someone please think of the children" lady from the Simpsons.

And with that, I'm bowing out of this one. Seems like it's been argued through and no minds will be changed. I leave you all with a highly offensive rape joke (sarcasm) by Louis CK. Please don't hit play if the word rape offends you.

[Youtube-Edited === Budman hates this take and Mr. CK can kiss my ass.-/Youtube]
Nate.. just don't wish to fan the fire.. with this stuff... anyone who wants to see it go to youtube and find it.

 

[Reli]

My girlfriend said something similar to what you just posted... she mentioned that in todays corporate world people get fired for making "jokes" about subjects like rape, and if dudes were to pay attention here, they may just be saving their own job.

Many of us work in that kind of environment, and teh interwebz gives us a way to "escape" from the PC nonsense.