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Dog Piss

Shahn said:
There is a big difference between a shock collar that Cesar uses on VERY RARE occasions and something gerry rigged to shock a dog when it urinates. Cesar uses the Shock Collar to re-inforce a message that he is delivering at the time it's being used.
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The number one rule of positive and negative re-enforcment is that it needs to be delivered as soon as the bad behavior is demonstrated. Since gwen is not the pets owner, a trap is the only available means to discourage the dog.

We had a similar problem training our dog not to lay on the couch... We eventually used mouse-traps, which were strong enough to discourage him, but not strong enough to harm him. After a few weeks, we didn't even need to set the traps.
 
Interstate said:
I don't like cats. I will tollerate them if a friend has one in their house, but if I see them in the road... I aim straight for them.
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When in a friends house you are kind enough to "tolerate" their pets? What a great friend you must be. You must be super popular.

Do you get all giggly thinking that you killed some little girl's pet cat? Real manly dude. Real manly.

:mad
 
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My dog ran into an electric fence once when we were hunting. He's no dummy. He never got close to it again, unlike me who got zapped twice more before the day was over.

Something to keep in mind... An electric fence or cattle prod designed to contain a 1500 lb cow just might kill a 30 lb dog.
 
An electrified rim probably won't do anything, to be honest. Surface tension usually causes fluid streams to form droplets. Dog piss isn't a great conductor to begin with, so you probably won't bridge the gap between the droplets without using insane voltages.

Mythbusters did an experiment like this - pissing on the 3rd rail. Busted.
 
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Burning1 said:
The number one rule of positive and negative re-enforcment is that it needs to be delivered as soon as the bad behavior is demonstrated. Since gwen is not the pets owner, a trap is the only available means to discourage the dog.

We had a similar problem training our dog not to lay on the couch... We eventually used mouse-traps, which were strong enough to discourage him, but not strong enough to harm him. After a few weeks, we didn't even need to set the traps.
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From what you describe, your dog didn't learn that jumping on the couch is bad or wrong. He learned that he can get hurt or that couches have scary things on them. That's lazy. From what you told me you didn't offer any positive reinforcement. You didn't actually train the dog anything other than fear of your couch. You didn't teach the dog to listen to you. I'll stop there because I'm just going off your description and you may have ommitted a lot of things.

I'm also stopping because this is a motorcycle forum and I come here to read about motorcycles. I don't want to get into an argument about the best way to train a dog. I am no Cesar. I started in on this because it seemed like it could go the wrong direction for both the person with the motorcycle and the dog.

The dog could get hurt and in turn hurt. The owner could end up hurting the dog or someone else. Also there is the remote possibility that the OP could get a Darwin award for electrocuting himself while rigging his urinary shock therapy system. :rofl

All in good fun. :)
 
Shahn said:
From what you describe, your dog didn't learn that jumping on the couch is bad or wrong. He learned that he can get hurt or that couches have scary things on them. That's lazy. From what you told me you didn't offer any positive reinforcement. You didn't actually train the dog anything other than fear of your couch. You didn't teach the dog to listen to you. I'll stop there because I'm just going off your description and you may have ommitted a lot of things.
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Actually, he learned to avoid the traps, and would start sleeping on the couch as soon as we forgot to put the traps out. But, the negative re-enforcement worked -- it was obvious he knew we were displeased if we caught him sleeping there. An invisible deterrent would have worked better - since he couldn't easily check for traps, he would have to avoid the couch completely, or risk being punished.

Positive and negative reinforcement work very well with people. In another life, I was a teacher working with students aged 3 to 60, and by the accounts of others, very good with children. Because of the nature of the job, I had to rely primarily on positive reinforcement.

Negative reinforcement worked very well in the constant presence of positive reinforcement - not much of a punishment is usually needed in order to change a behavior. In most cases, I could simply re-direct a student when they started misbehaving, rather than fighting them over behavior I don't like. If a kid was acting out, changing the lesson up and engaging them worked far better than punishing them. Patience and discipline were best developed through other means. Negative re-enforcement was only used when the student refused to be engaged at all.

Negative reinforcement is used socially. In a polite society, it can be very effective, because it's unexpected. However, when negative reinforcement becomes routine, it becomes abuse rather than a form of discipline - it looses a lot of it's effectiveness, and starts to cause a lot more problems than it resolves.

In a co-operative society, negative reinforcement is almost never needed. When people defect, it becomes required - punishment, but with the reminder that the co-operation will resume as soon as the offender demonstrates better behavior. This is how the legal system works.

Read up on the iterative prisoner's dilemma.
 
For what it's worth, this is a nice change of pace from motorcycling talk. I really do love early development and training theory, but there's no way I'd go near a parenting forum.
 
Here's a tip:
Put up a hidden camera.
Find out what dogs are pissing on the bike.
Catch said bastards, and put a shock collar on each one of them.
Put up one of those invisible fences.

If that fails, I suggest claymores.
 
thank you for the Ren and Stimpy reference. i love that show. :cool

as far as training dogs goes, i had a conversation a few weeks ago with a friend who was involved with training dogs for narcotics / SAR / herding / etc.

he mentioned that dogs correct each other socially with quick bites, nipping with their teeth, to the face or neck.

so, to a dog, if applied properly by a person, using pain to reinforce desired behavior is not necessarily going to be seen as negative reinforcement by the dog. simply a lesson learned. that said, there is a lot more that goes in to it than just hurting the animal.

so while i dunno how effective zapping the pooches privates will be for training purposes i sure would like to see the video of said event. :teeth
 
Well the threat of the shocker seems back to serving it's purpose with owner modification.

All of you who think this is cruel, have dogs, and think I need to just live with this...I will be very happy to accept your donations. My bike just turned 5K these parts are compromised as a result of the piss.

Chain
rear caliper replace or overhaul
remove tires and recondition, powder coat, or polish rims.
I think the brake discs and sprocket can be cleaned up and saved

Let me know who wants to start and organize the fund.
 
I am a huge animal lover. And I see no problem giving a dog a little harmless zap to curb his peeing habit. Sure it will sting for a second. But it will only take few zaps to get him to learn that it's not a good idea to pee there.
 
Noid said:
I am a huge animal lover. And I see no problem giving a dog a little harmless zap to curb his peeing habit. Sure it will sting for a second. But it will only take few zaps to get him to learn that it's not a good idea to pee there.
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...my thinkin 'zactly!!!

Wow I'd hate to see the guy's dogs (or kids for that matter) that never receive any discipline...part of America's selfish culture. "Sorry your stuff is ruined but it's cruel for me to teach my animal to respect your stuff. It's OK for me to treat your personal space like a dog park and it's OK for my dog to shit and piss wherever he wants. You are a very bad person who will burn in hell because you want to take measures to deter my dog from pissing all over your stuff." That's the way I hear it anyway.
 
Happy Hornet said:
...my thinkin 'zactly!!!

Wow I'd hate to see the guy's dogs (or kids for that matter) that never receive any discipline...part of America's selfish culture. "Sorry your stuff is ruined but it's cruel for me to teach my animal to respect your stuff. It's OK for me to treat your personal space like a dog park and it's OK for my dog to shit and piss wherever he wants. You are a very bad person who will burn in hell because you want to take measures to deter my dog from pissing all over your stuff." That's the way I hear it anyway.
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Actually, I think most of us are anxious to see if the electrified wheels work, and don't feel overly sorry for a dog getting a minor shock for pissing on a bike repeatedly. That said, I think most of us would enjoy seeing the owner of said dog shocked even more...:laughing
 
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