Engine/Compression Braking, Why???

[Holeshot]

Whoa! I think I just got what Robert was talking about. You mean to tell me that one uses the engine to brake INSTEAD of the front?

That's totally fucked up for any reason...

 

[Robert R1]

Whoa! I think I just got what Robert was talking about. You mean to tell me that one uses the engine to brake INSTEAD of the front?

That's totally fucked up for any reason...

Exactly!!! I don't think a lot of people know the diff. between engine braking and using the front brake. The front brake will slow you down much faster than the engine braking.

 

[christofu]

Re: Re: Re: Engine/Compression Braking, Why???

Although I am not as hard on my testies as Chris is I do agree with him. Sounds like someone should have an icepack ready at Sears this weekend

...and my girly wonders why I'm not very amorous after a race

I scream and yell "don't touch me!" Talk about role reversal

Chris.
www.ZoomZoomTrackDays.com

 

[Holeshot]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Engine/Compression Braking, Why???

...and my girly wonders why I'm not very amorous after a race

I scream and yell "don't touch me!" Talk about role reversal

Chris.
www.ZoomZoomTrackDays.com

BMW brakes are that good?

 

[Holeshot]

Off of the Gixxer forum:

"The thousand is no more.........than peices in my garage. It finally happened, here goes.

Me and three other buddies go for our usual early sunday morning ride, we meet up at 7am at a local spot. Its me on my 2002 thousand with 2000 miles, a 2000 gixxer 600, a 02 r6 and a 954. We take more or less the same roads because of our lack of twisties. We split up in twos because the roads are a little tight for four, so its the 600 and me and 954. We hit a tight right turn doin about 50 with a good 400 ft. of straight away ahead with a long sweeper that I've done a ton of times. I exit the turn and whack the throttle as usual and approach the turn at a good 125-130, when I go to dip the brake a little while I down shift my front slides and the back starts to skip totally out of control. I try to ride it out on this guys grass but it didn't workout the way I planned, headshake threw me off and went sliding for a good 100ft. before I stopped. Luckily the bike hit a tree and flipped over me and landed two feet ahead of me."

Just what I said about engine braking on the G1K...skipping rear end. If you're too light it's hard to overcome the compression on these bikes. This guy, of course, was just an idiot. But he teaches and important lesson...learn how to downshift and brake at the same time...

 

[Hooli]

It makes me using my rear less frequent.

No comment.

TMI!

 

[morthrane]

Its me on my 2002 thousand with 2000 miles, a 2000 gixxer 600, a 02 r6 and a 954.

Man, now that's talent. I can only ride one motorcycle at a time

 

[christofu]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Engine/Compression Braking, Why???

BMW brakes are that good?

They weren't when the BMW engine was still in the BMW.

But strangely, now that the BMW engine is snug in the Tigcraft chassis with TZ250 suspension and dual Braking USA rotors+Nissin race calipers up front the braking has mysteriously improved

Strictly speaking, though, the 650 single has enough engine braking, especially with the engine mods, that I can do laps within 5 or 6 seconds of my race pace without touching the brakes. As I did in the first race at Buttonwillow when my front master cylinder exploded on lap 4. Imagine coming into T3, reaching for the brakes and the lever coming all the way to the handlebar with no resistance. Oh, and brake fluid spraying everywhere

So I guess it's important to practice compression braking techniques as well as normal hard braking. Also, practicing techniques to clean brown goo out of shorts is quite important.

Speaking of which, remind me to tell you the story about how the singles bike makes the infamous Brown Note.

Chris.
www.ZoomZoomTrackDays.com

 

[MrCrash]

Confession: I love Super Greg.

Me too. Just saw his video for the first time, last week!

YOU'RE NUMBER ONE!

 

[Fargin Icehole]

Brakes are for wusses.....it only slows you down

 

[Smoothie]

Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

No significant deceleration can be accomplished with the rear wheel on the track. Sometimes if I downshift too early going into a turn the back gets squiggly and it feels neat. It makes me think I could possibly "back it in" ...someday, but it sure doesn't slow me down much.

The slipper clutch was developed for GP racers switching to 4-strokes. Apparently 2-stroke engines don't do much when you close the throttle.

I totally agree about the importance of braking skill. The front brake is the most powerful control on the bike; you can go from 150 to 60 much more quickly than the other way around if you know what you're doing.

I also agree that braking into a turn will only screw you up. Braking should be completed and entry speed established before the turn.

I can do laps within 5 or 6 seconds of my race pace without touching the brakes

Are you serious? You're kidding right? At Button Willow? WOW! What where your lap times?

 

[Robert R1]

Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

I also agree that braking into a turn will only screw you up. Braking should be completed and entry speed established before the turn.

I guess all the people who Trail Brake deep into the corner and run Godly fast laps are just idiots.

 

[Frag]

Re: Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

I guess all the people who Trail Brake deep into the corner and run Godly fast laps are just idiots.

Isn't trail braking done with the rear brake and thus doesn't provide a great deal of stopping power? Just a bit of stabilization. I know, and I think we can all agree that clamping down on the front brakes in a corner will stand you up and make the corner a very bad place for you and others.

I think we have to remember that none of us, or rather 99% aren't racers, don't have the resources, machines, or anything near talent of a Kevin Schwantz, Carl Fogarty, or even Eric Bostrom, whom I've seen clamp down on his front brakes lifting the rear tire midway through the last corner at Sears(I doubt he could have done this on off the shelf tires; racing slicks).

Also, those that do trail brake and run those godly fast laps are doing it on a track, where they run the same line each lap, and are leaving each corner on the same line and have learned the track and know there isn't going to be any surprises around the next corner. Where as on the street, I shudder to think of carrying that excess speed in a corner and realizing at the last moment there there is gravel strewn about the whole of it. Am I making any sense?

 

[magyarbetyar]

Re: Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

I guess all the people who Trail Brake deep into the corner and run Godly fast laps are just idiots.

Play nice kiddies.

 

[Robert R1]

Re: Re: Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

Isn't trail braking done with the rear brake and thus doesn't provide a great deal of stopping power?

No, mainly Trail Brake with the Front Brake. Bascially, you carry your braking into the corner and trail off as you get deeper into the corner.

I know, and I think we can all agree that clamping down on the front brakes in a corner will stand you up and make the corner a very bad place for you and others.

Bad technique and panic braking is what causes the bike to stand up. Trail braking actually helps the bike turn in better/faster, all the while you are scrubbing off speed, meaning that you can brake later for that corner, thus in-turn, you stayed on the gas longer before you started braking.

Ofcourse this should be done on the track. It's a technique that a lot of rider are not familiar with just like blipping your downshifts while braking hard.

 

[magyarbetyar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

. . . . . .just like blipping your downshifts while braking hard.

This is so true. I've got the rev matching down but add in the braking or should I say HARD braking. Deffinetly takes lots of practice.

 

[christofu]

Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

I also agree that braking into a turn will only screw you up. Braking should be completed and entry speed established before the turn.

I found trail braking to be quite useful when I started charging into turns. I could never get my entry speed set quite right. All that hard braking left little finesse about setting exact speed. I was either too fast or too slow. Now I trail brake, braking with the front all the way to the apex. It lets me fine-tune my corner speed. But when you start doing it, remember, slower is better than faster to begin with (too much brake and you push the front... ask me how I know!)

I mumble something about lapping only about 5-6 seconds slower at BW without using the brakes
Are you serious? You're kidding right? At Button Willow? WOW! What where your lap times?

In all fairness I should point out that this was when I was still coming to grips with the frankenbike and the suspension was all crappy. So I was lapping really slowly -- 2:15 with brakes, 2:20.5 without brakes. Also, it should be noted that a 650 single, with high compression piston, has the most insane amount of engine braking. Letting off the throttle is basically equivalent to activating the rear brake. Not to mention the effect of shifting down gears!

Now I have the bike working properly and I'm lapping in the 2:07 range, I doubt that I could do a lap in 2:13 with no brakes. Or perhaps I could! Realistically, how much do you really hard brake at BW? T2. T3. T9. T11. That's about it!

Chris.
www.ZoomZoomTrackDays.com

 

[Smoothie]

Re: Re: Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

I think we have to remember that none of us, or rather 99% aren't racers, don't have the resources, machines, or anything near talent of a Kevin Schwantz, Carl Fogarty, or even Eric Bostrom

No doubt!

From what I've read, trail braking is accomplished when entering a turn by applying the throttle while still on the front brake. This encourages the rear to spin up and keeps the suspension loaded. As more lean is achieved, less braking is used and the suspension should stay compressed through the exit of the turn. I have also read that this is not the fastest way to go through a turn, but it is used as a tactic to gain position in a race. When trail braking deep into a turn you can stuff someone who otherwise has a faster line.

Let me stress, this is what I've read - not what I have ever done. Maybe Chris can help me out or correct me here.

 

[Igor]

Super Greag is the bomb , I want to be part of his crew.

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[Holeshot]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we talking STREET or TRACK?

No doubt!

From what I've read, trail braking is accomplished when entering a turn by applying the throttle while still on the front brake. This encourages the rear to spin up and keeps the suspension loaded. As more lean is achieved, less braking is used and the suspension should stay compressed through the exit of the turn. I have also read that this is not the fastest way to go through a turn, but it is used as a tactic to gain position in a race. When trail braking deep into a turn you can stuff someone who otherwise has a faster line.

Let me stress, this is what I've read - not what I have ever done. Maybe Chris can help me out or correct me here.

You're kidding right?

If you leave the gas on while still clamped on the fronts, you're invariably going to overload the front tire and tuck it.

When the rear "spins up" the suspension unloads. Ridding 4 strokes is alot different than Doohan and the 2 strokes...