Even if it's not drafting but tailgating, it doesn't belong in C Group

[metricHalfPint]

Traffic jams can happen on the track, and they can catch you off guard. But am I the only one who would find that for Group C riders, whose braking/swerving skills are likely not quite as refined as those of the riders in Group A and possibly B, that the following distances shown in the first two pictures below are way too close?

This is not to suggest that it's a frequent occurrence at trackdays, but having now seen these images, I'd feel much safer if minimum following distances were touched upon during riders meetings. Not coincidentally, the rider in the gray sweatshirt (in the third picture) demonstrating a safer following distance was actually a Group A rider only in C for demos. The C Group instructors at this track day also tended to allow more generous following distances than most other riders captured on camera, so wouldn't it make sense to follow their lead with regards to spacing? If you're riding with buddies or following an instructor in a long string of bikes, maybe you might agree on other norms amongst yourselves, but if not, the last picture might be a good example of how a group of several riders could safely space themselves in Group C.

I've ridden with several trackday providers and have had good experiences with all of them. This post was not intended to express disappointment with a situation at a particular track day, but rather to bring up a topic I don't recall being addressed at any of them. Maintaining safe passing distances usually gets brought up at the riders meetings, but I think many riders interpret it to mean side-to-side proximity. Wouldn't it be worth the extra few seconds to explicitly mention the safety bubble of at least a bike length also applies to following distances even at slower speeds in Group C? Riders might be more likely to maintain that distance even in a traffic jam if the issue is fresh in their minds.









(Mods: I put this in General, because especially during winter fewer riders may be following posts in the Trackdays Forum, and it may also be relevant for those who've not yet done track days but are considering it.)

 

[Shaggy]

Most TD providers establish a rule for how close you can follow, pass, etc... Usually like 6ft.

 

[clutchslip]

This really is track-day, stuff. But, if you want some more attention, so be it. I have heard plenty of orientations where the 6' passing distance, usually for C, B-, does mean front and back too. However, what you are asking is virtually impossible, and that rule is virtually impossible, because for people to pass, they must get close behind someone. Otherwise there will never be passing and you might as well be on a merry-go-round.

 

[ratlab]

c group is like herding cats-your pictures look pretty typical-all the td providers iv'e worked for it's 6 ft. for passing and only on the outside.on the track you have to get used to close quarters.it's not like college now where you can have a "safe space".

 

[Wicked4Racin]

Welcome to C group, step right up, step right up, take your chances, its a free for all! That sums up C group so either try and space yourself from other riders on track or move up a group. Hate to be blunt but it's a beginner group, most will have a hard time focusing on anything besides themselves due to the on track skill level they have. It's not a bad thing as everyone has to start some were but it's a group where it's dangerous and at times chaotic but it's the C group, play or move up.

 

[ZCrow]

Honestly, only the first picture looks bad on the 6' foot rule. The others all look well outside of the 6' bubble. I don't know how anyone would get confused on the 6' foot rule because every rider meeting I have been to it is referred to a 6' bubble as in 3D. That said C can be a scary mess. People bash B group but C was where the really sketchy stuff happened to me. Control riders/instructors help with a lot of this but keep in mind in C a lot of people are on the track for the first time and are probably juggling learning multiple things at once.

 

[clutchslip]

Oh great, we have two people suggesting this person move up, even though he/she is worried about someone BEHIND them being too close. Doh. Passing is much closer in B and particularly A. AND it's faster.

I have ridden in C, many times, at (A- (B+)) pace, and never had a problem. I pass like I am in C group. C is really safe for me. I have been hit in A and B groups, however. Maybe some should review their "skills", because passing slow vehicles should be easier, not harder.

 

[stangmx13]

I don't think I've ever been in any track day group and not found a long string of 6-12 bikes in a long string nose to tail. They all close up on the brakes and spread out a little on the gas as normal. For the life of me, I can't/don't understand why so many riders would want to or feel better riding like that... But it keeps happening. Some of the close following distances are a by-product of this IMO

 

[MustangWolf]

I dropped into C group my last track day to form my buddy and sound it to be a horrid mess. While I understand that its many peoples' first track day, it looked like it many riders still needed to take a Road Rider 2.0 course or get a few more miles under their belt just riding on the street.

 

[ratlab]

Oh great, we have two people suggesting this person move up, even though he/she is worried about someone BEHIND them being too close. Doh. Passing is much closer in B and particularly A. AND it's faster.

I have ridden in C, many times, at (A- (B+)) pace, and never had a problem. I pass like I am in C group. C is really safe for me. I have been hit in A and B groups, however. Maybe some should review their "skills", because passing slow vehicles should be easier, not harder.

b is the worst-riders that should be in C and riders that should be in A group together. big closing speeds, sketchy passing and crazy lines.crash truck was out the most during B group.

 

[Wicked4Racin]

In no way am I suggesting to move up to B without the proper skills needed, all I'm saying is your in the beginner group, it's not safe, be prepared to make space, or learn to cope with the drama. It is what it is, as the riders skills advance, so do the predictability of those riders, and then closer distances become less of a threat. In A group I enjoy a tight group. It makes things easier to see where you can learn from other riders, and where you have better lines or entry/exit speeds to them. In any group you can always pull into the pits, let the group pass, and get back on track. Easy to do and not enough riders do it. Most tracks are over 2 miles, that's a lot of room to find where you are comfortable.

 

[Not Sure]

As a returning to the track after a 10 year gap rider, I ran into this issue every time out in C group. All of a sudden the group would get backed up quickly and people would try and keep a decent gap only to be bunched up at every corner entrance.

The one thing I noticed every time, and this was at different tracks with different providers was this: During the riders meeting, even the new rider intro meeting, they never once touched on line etiquette. What seemed to be happening was a rider would struggle to maintain the racing line by doing everything they could to stay in it, even as they drift in and out and even completely blow it. They would hastily move right back into what they though was the line they should be taking. I found this to be the reason for bunching up almost every time as no one wanted to aggressively make a pass to get around them because they would drift back and forth so much.

I think a simple talk about holding your line, and how that affects people behind you that you cannot see coming, would have been great to hear. For new riders this is critical, on an MX track this is the only major rule that is expressed and you should follow when beginning. If you cannot maintain the line without drifting in and out, you should be slowing to a more controllable pace or forfeit the line as you become a danger to others who can.

An example from my last day, at one point I was almost t-boned twice by the same liter bike rider who kept blowing the corner literally into the dirt and then jumping directly back onto the track into the racing line. He was catching up on the straights only to start scattering riders as he could not control his corners.

I know that everyone says the faster rider will always make the pass, but some basic line etiquette in the C group should be instilled much better to help prevent the bottle necking that occurs frequently. Instructors seem to pay great attention to this and act appropriately when they are towing someone around, so there is no reason individual riders should not be taught to do the same in C group.

 

[matty]

As a perpetual newb (read C group veteran), I see these bunch ups all the time, but it doesn't seem particularly dangerous to me. The pace of these trains is agonizingly slow and most riders just to seem to park it and not try to pass. Though, there is often that one guy, as pointed out above, who guns it on the straights and blows the corners.

Regardless, what I do when I'm coming up on one of these trains is just pop into the pit lane for a minute, let the group get a fair way round and pop back on to an open track, it is way less frustrating then getting caught up in the group, in my opinion.

 

[MustangWolf]

Maybe the first class session of the day should focus on track etiquette instead of going straight to technique?

 

[Gixxergirl1000]

Welcome to C group, step right up, step right up, take your chances, its a free for all! That sums up C group so either try and space yourself from other riders on track or move up a group. Hate to be blunt but it's a beginner group, most will have a hard time focusing on anything besides themselves due to the on track skill level they have. It's not a bad thing as everyone has to start some were but it's a group where it's dangerous and at times chaotic but it's the C group, play or move up.

C group is slow, and generally cautious. B group is the clusterfuck.
Having large amounts of instructors out in C, towing the n00bs, eliminates the majority of problems with bunching and bad lines.
Taking the time to thoroughly explain the 6 foot passing rule worked great for C groups... but of course, many of the B group riders felt they were far too talented for this rule to apply to them. One more than one occasion, I called B group in for a 2nd rider's meeting atlunch...

 

[metricHalfPint]

It seems like the opinion of many is "that's just the way it is," but the question is, "What should it be ideally, and what could be done to move things in that direction?"

If new riders are following too closely because it's what they see everyone doing, so they assume it's okay, then maybe the first step is just reminding them what is too close and what is a safer distance.

FWIW, it's not the momentary "about-to-pass" scenarios that are most concerning, but rather the riders who park it too close behind another rider and stay there.

Also, some of you may need special glasses to adjust the skewing of track distances that seems to be occurring. Where you're seeing 6 feet of space, I'm seeing 4 or less, and the example that's barely a foot is just stupid at any speed.

be prepared to make space

How do you make space behind you?

 

[Reli]

A couple sandbaggers in this thread

 

[clutchslip]

It seems like the opinion of many is "that's just the way it is," but the question is, "What should it be ideally, and what could be done to move things in that direction?"

If new riders are following too closely because it's what they see everyone doing, so they assume it's okay, then maybe the first step is just reminding them what is too close and what is a safer distance.

FWIW, it's not the momentary "about-to-pass" scenarios that are most concerning, but rather the riders who park it too close behind another rider and stay there.

Also, some of you may need special glasses to adjust the skewing of track distances that seems to be occurring. Where you're seeing 6 feet of space, I'm seeing 4 or less, and the example that's barely a foot is just stupid at any speed.

How do you make space behind you?

You don't understand why C bunches up. People are being cautious and not passing unless they are absolutely sure it is safe. Great for you, because it is safer. If you are worried about the guy behind you, then put up your hand, slow down, let them pass, get some clear track, and continue on with your day. MotoGP guys do this. So I am SURE that your superfast ego can handle doing this, too. Egos get people in trouble on the track. Don't let it happen to you.

 

[metricHalfPint]

he/she is worried about someone BEHIND them being too close.

You don't understand why C bunches up.

You seemed to understand the problem better in your earlier post. It's not the fact that bunching up occurs that is the issue, but that the following distance riders are using is too small when they arrive at the bunch up.

If you are worried about the guy behind you, then put up your hand, slow down, let them pass, get some clear track, and continue on with your day.

Most tracksdays I've been at either require mirrors to be taped or removed, so how would you know there is someone dangerously close behind you? Track day schools I've attended have instructed keeping eyes (and focus) forward. Never have I heard it recommended to make routine or even periodic headchecks to assess the situation to the rear. If I did and the guy behind me was a foot away, he'd smack me for sure.

MotoGP guys do this.

You got any youtube clips handy of those MotoGP guys doing this? And for the sake of argument, we're not talking professional racing, we're talking C Group at trackdays, which is not supposed to be racing.

 

[phocup]

Problem with judging from pictures is that they only capture a single moment. Hard to tell in pic #1 but rider in pic #2 looks to me like they're about to make an inside pass. He could have been further back earlier and just started to gas / close the gap when he saw space on the inside ?

That said, yes, please stay a few feet ( or bike length preferably ) back if you're behind me on my line in C group. Its for your sake as well.

Aside from the ass pack factor, none of us C groupers are 'fast' or 'good' and chances of the rider immediately in front of you f'in up and crashing right in front of you in a corner is pretty high. I've had to run off track to avoid a rider who low sided just in front of me mid corner. I was about a few bike length behind of the crashed rider and was barely able to react with my noob skill to avoid both the rider and the bike.

Imagine this scenario if you're tailgating even 1 bike length back ( crash happens about 25 second into video ).

[youtube]yVa_iVxJpEw[/youtube]