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I'm not sure what you mean. Would you please explain?
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Failing MSF riding test
- Thread starter SNsMoto
- Start date
MSF Class
Don't feel bad if you didn't pass the MSF Class. It takes some people a little more time to acquire the fundamentals to pass the class. Fifty percent of the riders at the police motor academy don't pass either. I would rather have someone angry with me for not passing him (I say "him" because we haven't had any women recruits) instead of telling their widow or parents that "Joe" was a great guy. As an instructor, it's my job to make sure a rider is prepared to face the hazzards they will be confronted with on the road. If you can't get past some cones in a parking lot at low speeds, you are going to vapor lock and crash on the street when danger comes your way. Like others have stated on this forum, it's about practice, practice, practice. Seek out a rider coach to keep you on track and things will come around for you.
Don't feel bad if you didn't pass the MSF Class. It takes some people a little more time to acquire the fundamentals to pass the class. Fifty percent of the riders at the police motor academy don't pass either. I would rather have someone angry with me for not passing him (I say "him" because we haven't had any women recruits) instead of telling their widow or parents that "Joe" was a great guy. As an instructor, it's my job to make sure a rider is prepared to face the hazzards they will be confronted with on the road. If you can't get past some cones in a parking lot at low speeds, you are going to vapor lock and crash on the street when danger comes your way. Like others have stated on this forum, it's about practice, practice, practice. Seek out a rider coach to keep you on track and things will come around for you.
xSommerx
New member
I think I'll take this opportunity to tell the story of my MSF course experience...lol. This was the San Jose location.
So the first riding day I thought I was doing well, but I was going a lot slower than everyone else. 4 people dropped their bikes, some even maybe 3 or 4 times throughout the day, and I felt really good about not dropping my bike, coming close to crashing, or any other major problems. So the head coach Mark was really encouraging me because I had never used a clutch before and this was my first time riding. Everything was great until the second coach (an older gentleman, I can't remember his name) suddenly stops me and tells me I am going to have to leave if I don't speed up. This really shocked me, so I made a significant effort to speed up, and really worked towards pushing myself. Well when coming around a turn my gears sort of lock up (these bikes were so freaking hard to shift into second, you literally had to kick it as hard as you could) so I pull over to get myself into first and start up again because I didn't want to be in everyone's way. Well he comes over to me angrily and starts telling me how I am not improving at all, and need to leave. I am really shocked because Mark hasn't said anything to me about this and I HAD been going faster than before. So while I try to explain he just cuts me off and tells me to get off the bike. I end up having to sit on the side while everyone watches me and continues the exercise and I can hardly hold back my tears. I was just so upset that he had treated me like I wasn't even a person, just an inconvenience to him. Well Mark comes over and tells me that he doesn't agree with that at all, and that he will stay after and help me because he believes I am a good rider and that he saw I was able to correct myself and not make any significant errors or ride dangerously. After the class he stayed after for almost three hours with me and my boyfriend and helped us, and the next day I was able to pass the test!
I still can't believe I passed, but I couldn't have done it if Mark hadn't had so much faith in me. I also don't think it is fair that one person can drop their bike more than 5 times, and yet I am the one who gets kicked out. But whatever, I passed and I think that one guy just needs to be more patient with students. Mark rocks
Anyway, I put my foot down but stayed in the box, so I only got the 3 points on that exercise. Some things are worth a ton of points, my boyfriend got 15 points just for anticipating the finish line of the quick stop! He still passed though.
So the first riding day I thought I was doing well, but I was going a lot slower than everyone else. 4 people dropped their bikes, some even maybe 3 or 4 times throughout the day, and I felt really good about not dropping my bike, coming close to crashing, or any other major problems. So the head coach Mark was really encouraging me because I had never used a clutch before and this was my first time riding. Everything was great until the second coach (an older gentleman, I can't remember his name) suddenly stops me and tells me I am going to have to leave if I don't speed up. This really shocked me, so I made a significant effort to speed up, and really worked towards pushing myself. Well when coming around a turn my gears sort of lock up (these bikes were so freaking hard to shift into second, you literally had to kick it as hard as you could) so I pull over to get myself into first and start up again because I didn't want to be in everyone's way. Well he comes over to me angrily and starts telling me how I am not improving at all, and need to leave. I am really shocked because Mark hasn't said anything to me about this and I HAD been going faster than before. So while I try to explain he just cuts me off and tells me to get off the bike. I end up having to sit on the side while everyone watches me and continues the exercise and I can hardly hold back my tears. I was just so upset that he had treated me like I wasn't even a person, just an inconvenience to him. Well Mark comes over and tells me that he doesn't agree with that at all, and that he will stay after and help me because he believes I am a good rider and that he saw I was able to correct myself and not make any significant errors or ride dangerously. After the class he stayed after for almost three hours with me and my boyfriend and helped us, and the next day I was able to pass the test!
I still can't believe I passed, but I couldn't have done it if Mark hadn't had so much faith in me. I also don't think it is fair that one person can drop their bike more than 5 times, and yet I am the one who gets kicked out. But whatever, I passed and I think that one guy just needs to be more patient with students. Mark rocks
Anyway, I put my foot down but stayed in the box, so I only got the 3 points on that exercise. Some things are worth a ton of points, my boyfriend got 15 points just for anticipating the finish line of the quick stop! He still passed though.
sixtytwo
meh.
Well, I had a rough first day when I took the msf - I just wasn't getting the feel for the clutch, so I kept stalling the bike. As a result, one of the instructors recommended that I repeat the first day some other weekend.
Against my better judgement, I decided to take day 2 anyway. Apparently, something just clicked in my head between days 1 and 2. I managed to pass the test. The part I messed up on was that I went a little out of the box in the 2 u-turns test.
But whatever, everyones' is a different experience. It's a fast paced course if you never ridden a motorcycle before because there's just so much to cover, and there are only 2 short half days to cover it all.
Against my better judgement, I decided to take day 2 anyway. Apparently, something just clicked in my head between days 1 and 2. I managed to pass the test. The part I messed up on was that I went a little out of the box in the 2 u-turns test.
But whatever, everyones' is a different experience. It's a fast paced course if you never ridden a motorcycle before because there's just so much to cover, and there are only 2 short half days to cover it all.
xSommerx
New member
I think the size of the riding class is also detrimental in terms of teaching people who have never ridden a motorcycle. During the time when Mark stayed after to help me do the exercises I missed, he noticed a lot of things that he hadn't noticed before when he was in charge of watching 12 people. I had been sticking my right knee out when I got nervous which totally threw off my balance and made me go slower, and after I concentrated on hugging the tank with my knees I was WAY more stable and felt more comfortable speeding up. I also started putting as much of my foot under the shifter as possible, which gave me more leverage and made it easier to shift, rather than just having my toes under there.
I think a lot of whether or not you pass is based on how much your coaches notice and how much they are willing to put up with you. If Mark hadn't stayed after and helped me, there would have been no way I was going to pass, and Ive heard at some locations if you drop the bike even once you are kicked out, so that means more than a third of our class would have been asked to leave.
Oh well, in the end the only thing I was able to do absolutely perfectly was the quick stop, which in my opinion is the most important
I think a lot of whether or not you pass is based on how much your coaches notice and how much they are willing to put up with you. If Mark hadn't stayed after and helped me, there would have been no way I was going to pass, and Ive heard at some locations if you drop the bike even once you are kicked out, so that means more than a third of our class would have been asked to leave.
Oh well, in the end the only thing I was able to do absolutely perfectly was the quick stop, which in my opinion is the most important
squid vicious
nomnomnomnom
There is a lot more to it than just dropping the bike. and this is for ALL locations.
During the evaluation itself, dropping the bike will result in the rider coaches stopping your test. this is explained during the directions at the start of the evaluation.
During the course it self, a fall can happen due to a wide variety of reasons. If it was a simple accident, more often than not the student may continue. However if the fall was the result of a pattern of unsafe behavior such as consistently stabbing at the brake lever or consistently forgetting to pull in the clutch, and this behavior had been previously addressed with the student, they may very well be asked to come back at another time.
MSFIT
New member
12 students, 10 hours riding.
From barely being able to power-walk across the range, to making a u-turn in a 20' box.
It's a standardized nation-wide curriculum, policies and procedures are really the only things that change from site-site. Such as being able to retake the riding portion once at no-cost.
Each exercise runs about a half hour, some run longer depending if a student has not met the objective. If you don't meet the objective you will struggle through the rest of them. If you look like you might be a danger to the other students, or the coaches see that you are no longer meeting the objectives because you have fallen behind you will be asked to leave.
At the beginning and end of every exercise they will ask if you have any questions/concerns, this would be the time to state that you are having difficulty getting your speeds up, or difficulty shifting. As you said yourself, 2 coaches are watching 12 students, tending to one rider that pulls out of the group takes their attention away from the 11 other new riders. Those ones you say kept putting bikes down. When a coach feels that a student has reached a mental block, learning-interrupted, they will ask them to return on another day.
From barely being able to power-walk across the range, to making a u-turn in a 20' box.
It's a standardized nation-wide curriculum, policies and procedures are really the only things that change from site-site. Such as being able to retake the riding portion once at no-cost.
Each exercise runs about a half hour, some run longer depending if a student has not met the objective. If you don't meet the objective you will struggle through the rest of them. If you look like you might be a danger to the other students, or the coaches see that you are no longer meeting the objectives because you have fallen behind you will be asked to leave.
At the beginning and end of every exercise they will ask if you have any questions/concerns, this would be the time to state that you are having difficulty getting your speeds up, or difficulty shifting. As you said yourself, 2 coaches are watching 12 students, tending to one rider that pulls out of the group takes their attention away from the 11 other new riders. Those ones you say kept putting bikes down. When a coach feels that a student has reached a mental block, learning-interrupted, they will ask them to return on another day.
I was counseled out on the second day of riding. I had to go home and think about what the rider coaches had been telling me. It turned out much of problem had to do with the time and type of bicycle I had been riding.
Riding mostly at night with a headlight makes one look at the ground where the headlight lights up the road. On my bike it is about 30 feet ahead. It was pointed out to me that I was looking at the ground pretty close in. That was the cause. The instructor recommended riding more in daylight hours.
The worse problem was that I could not overcome a ham fisted control over the throttle, I did one double U turn in the box correctly but over accelerated in the turn most of the time causing the bike to turn wide out of the box. I was counseled out on a Sunday. The following Wednesday I went for a bicycle ride from Fort Mason across the Golden Gate and back. As I came to the steep hill from Fort Point going up to the south side of the bridge, I raised my wrist and gave SRAM grip shifter a good throw through several gears. The light bulb came on. It had become pure instinct to raise the wrist in anticipation of changing through a number gears and I did this on the motorcycle when accelerating.
The instructor who counseled me out actually told me I was doing these things but I had no clue why because they were so instinctive that I was no longer aware of doing it. I sold that bicycle and replaced it with a bike with downtube shifters.
I also realized why a high wrist makes throttle control so bad. If the wrist is high, as the wrist moves down to accelerate, the bike accelerates forward pulling on the wrist which causes the wrist to rotate down more with the result that you end up accelerating more than intended. That cannot happen if the wrist is straight or slightly down.
I did have motorcycle to test these theories with before retaking the class a few months later. It felt pretty good to be able to do the double U turns in the box without ever going out the second time around.
Now I have been riding a little less than a year. What was the skill that proved the most valuable? The fast swerve and turn. The lady instructor on the day of the test kept urging me to go faster into that swerve and turn. I did. That proved very useful one night on the way back from San Francisco on Hwy 280 when a deer stepped out in front of me from the left.
Riding mostly at night with a headlight makes one look at the ground where the headlight lights up the road. On my bike it is about 30 feet ahead. It was pointed out to me that I was looking at the ground pretty close in. That was the cause. The instructor recommended riding more in daylight hours.
The worse problem was that I could not overcome a ham fisted control over the throttle, I did one double U turn in the box correctly but over accelerated in the turn most of the time causing the bike to turn wide out of the box. I was counseled out on a Sunday. The following Wednesday I went for a bicycle ride from Fort Mason across the Golden Gate and back. As I came to the steep hill from Fort Point going up to the south side of the bridge, I raised my wrist and gave SRAM grip shifter a good throw through several gears. The light bulb came on. It had become pure instinct to raise the wrist in anticipation of changing through a number gears and I did this on the motorcycle when accelerating.
The instructor who counseled me out actually told me I was doing these things but I had no clue why because they were so instinctive that I was no longer aware of doing it. I sold that bicycle and replaced it with a bike with downtube shifters.
I also realized why a high wrist makes throttle control so bad. If the wrist is high, as the wrist moves down to accelerate, the bike accelerates forward pulling on the wrist which causes the wrist to rotate down more with the result that you end up accelerating more than intended. That cannot happen if the wrist is straight or slightly down.
I did have motorcycle to test these theories with before retaking the class a few months later. It felt pretty good to be able to do the double U turns in the box without ever going out the second time around.
Now I have been riding a little less than a year. What was the skill that proved the most valuable? The fast swerve and turn. The lady instructor on the day of the test kept urging me to go faster into that swerve and turn. I did. That proved very useful one night on the way back from San Francisco on Hwy 280 when a deer stepped out in front of me from the left.
akacastle
New member
Interesting logic
Very interesting logic. Could you of just tried to not put the foot down and if you did still just go on as easily? Just wondering, and good for you for passing
The U-turn test is the most feared exercise; at least that is how I remembered it. I put my foot down there, screwed it up and then locked the front brake on the exit. Fail! I was never good at taking tests and my fear of performing in front of people got the worst of me that day...
I did pass the test on the second time after I put more than 1,500 miles on my bike. I practiced making U-turn to the point where I could turn my 600cc bike by leaning the living fuck out of it. All in the first gear
Very interesting logic. Could you of just tried to not put the foot down and if you did still just go on as easily? Just wondering, and good for you for passing
Ogg
Oggito ergo sum
Just a quick 
to both those thinking that some of their class should not have passed, and others who may be thinking that because they have passed, they "know how to ride"....
It's the basic rider course - fundamental rules and habits to try to keep you alive long enough to gain the experience and judgment to become a competent rider.
Apologies if this comes across as condescending, because I don't mean it that way. It's just a reminder that the BRC for a lot of folks is just the first of many, many lessons.
to both those thinking that some of their class should not have passed, and others who may be thinking that because they have passed, they "know how to ride"....It's the basic rider course - fundamental rules and habits to try to keep you alive long enough to gain the experience and judgment to become a competent rider.
Apologies if this comes across as condescending, because I don't mean it that way. It's just a reminder that the BRC for a lot of folks is just the first of many, many lessons.
I found this post very informative about improving skills beyond MSF
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295114
I am still practicing the drills. The drill about holding the bike on a hill with only throttle and clutch really improved my use of the friction zone.
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295114
I am still practicing the drills. The drill about holding the bike on a hill with only throttle and clutch really improved my use of the friction zone.
Thateguhate
Dislikes Cyclists!
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2009
- Location
- San Mateo, CA
- Moto(s)
- 2001 Honda CBR F4i
- Name
- Dave
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Something doesn't sound right. They are pretty forgiving actually when it comes to passing people.
+1
So from some of the posts I've read, I conclude that passing/failing is heavily dependent on the attitude and personality type of the instructors. Some people said they've dropped bikes and had multiple negative points, and they passed. Others have said they had very minimal negative occurrences and they failed.
One of the main things I remember about my MSF experience was how the instructors made everyone feel at ease while learning. They kept emphasizing that "We're not expecting you to be perfect riders but safe riders." and that "Mistakes are part of learning. We want you to make the mistakes here so you don't make them in the real world!"
crick
Doodler
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2010
- Location
- san jose
- Moto(s)
- BMW R1200RT, f800ST, sold: honda vlx600, Suzuki GSX600F
- Name
- aLbert
as far as i know, in order to even rent a moped in the state of california, you are required an M1 license. I rented a couple mopeds up in SF and down in LA and both required a valid M1 license - no learners permit, but a full on "yes i passed the DMV" license.
maybe practice on an electric scooter?
atypicalperson
Medemememe
The U-turn test is the most feared exercise; at least that is how I remembered it. I put my foot down there, screwed it up and then locked the front brake on the exit. Fail! I was never good at taking tests and my fear of performing in front of people got the worst of me that day...
I did pass the test on the second time after I put more than 1,500 miles on my bike. I practiced making U-turn to the point where I could turn my 600cc bike by leaning the living fuck out of it. All in the first gear
LAWLZ! Great story
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Location
- SC Mtns Area
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I'm not sure that I understand
If you mean that the ability of the Ridercoaches to effectively communicate and coach is based on their attitude/personality, and how that attitude influences the rider, then I agree with your statement. If you mean something else, then I would have to disagree.
There is no specific requirement for asking a student to leave as a course progresses. Dropping a bike (once or more) is not an automatic dismissal.
When it comes to taking the Evaluation, there is no discretion. It is 100% on the rider. Riders have no idea what the actual point count is for specific 'violations' and frequently make inaccurate conclusions about their score.
Ogg
Oggito ergo sum
Is this intentional, or is scoring information readily available and folks just don't look? Seems to me that sharing the scoring would nip all of this in the bud.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Location
- SC Mtns Area
- Moto(s)
- Attack™-ed R1, hybrid S1000rr, XR1200 Q-Ship
- BARF perks
- AMA #: 2815246
In hindsight, I should have said this:
Prior to taking the Evaluation riders have no idea what the actual point count is for specific 'violations'. When the Evaluation is over, they are shown their score and the specific 'violations' that they earned.
When students are aware of the exact point count for a specific task, or individual action, they will then overly concentrate on that portion with negative results. Example: When a student is told that crossing a line adds points, they will usually look down at the line during that exercise rather than focus on the skill required/being taught. Riders generally fail to accept that looking at the line is a major contributor to actually crossing the line.
A lot depends on the instructor and the attitude of the rider. My father failed his first time out. Bear in mind he had over twenty years experience as a motorcyclist. He not only went on to pass the basic and advanced rider courses, he became an instructor. It made him a much safer rider.
I passed my first time out, also with a bit of experience. I started riding when I was a teenager and gave it up in my twenties. When I got back on the iron horse, in my early thirties, I took and passed the MSF course to appease my father. I became interested in the course and began assisting. I thought seriously about becoming an instructor. My life took a turn in another direction so that never happened....or perhaps I should say, it has not happened yet...
The point of the MSF basic rider course is to introduce new riders and educate experienced riders to the basic skills most people will not learn on their own. SIPDE, Scan, Identify, Predict, and Execute, is essential to safe operation of any motor vehicle. Learning to counter steer in not intuitive, it must be taught. Some people do stumble on to it, but most never do.
My father did not learn to counter steer until he took the MSF course. I stumbled on to it by dumb luck when I was young. I counter steer without thinking about it. I suppose that is part of why I passed my first time out and my father did not. He used to steer a motorcycle like a bicycle.
I learned early on to use my body weight and leverage to handle a motorcycle that nearly thrice my weight. Many hours spent in the Berkeley Hills on a classic RD 250 taught me to counter steer. Try doing switch backs on a three hundred plus pound underpowered two stroke with a power band that's short and sudden.
The MSF courses are about safety training. No matter how much you think you know about riding you can always learn more. My father's head instructor was test riding one of the first BMW's to have anti-lock brakes when he fell victim to a careless driver. He had as much skill and experience as anyone on two wheels and it was not enough to save his life.
My last mishap was the result of carelessness. The motorcycle failed my pre-ride check and I was too eager to ride. Cost me a bit of hard earned cash and a lot of credibility (It wasn't my bike). Lesson learned? Let's hope so.
I've lost track of the number of times I've been down. However, it's only happened once since I took the MSF course. That one time could have been prevented very easily. I suspect that taking the course again when I began riding again would have done the trick.
If you have never taken an MSF course or, if you have not taken one recently, sign up. I'm going to real soon....
I passed my first time out, also with a bit of experience. I started riding when I was a teenager and gave it up in my twenties. When I got back on the iron horse, in my early thirties, I took and passed the MSF course to appease my father. I became interested in the course and began assisting. I thought seriously about becoming an instructor. My life took a turn in another direction so that never happened....or perhaps I should say, it has not happened yet...
The point of the MSF basic rider course is to introduce new riders and educate experienced riders to the basic skills most people will not learn on their own. SIPDE, Scan, Identify, Predict, and Execute, is essential to safe operation of any motor vehicle. Learning to counter steer in not intuitive, it must be taught. Some people do stumble on to it, but most never do.
My father did not learn to counter steer until he took the MSF course. I stumbled on to it by dumb luck when I was young. I counter steer without thinking about it. I suppose that is part of why I passed my first time out and my father did not. He used to steer a motorcycle like a bicycle.
I learned early on to use my body weight and leverage to handle a motorcycle that nearly thrice my weight. Many hours spent in the Berkeley Hills on a classic RD 250 taught me to counter steer. Try doing switch backs on a three hundred plus pound underpowered two stroke with a power band that's short and sudden.
The MSF courses are about safety training. No matter how much you think you know about riding you can always learn more. My father's head instructor was test riding one of the first BMW's to have anti-lock brakes when he fell victim to a careless driver. He had as much skill and experience as anyone on two wheels and it was not enough to save his life.
My last mishap was the result of carelessness. The motorcycle failed my pre-ride check and I was too eager to ride. Cost me a bit of hard earned cash and a lot of credibility (It wasn't my bike). Lesson learned? Let's hope so.
I've lost track of the number of times I've been down. However, it's only happened once since I took the MSF course. That one time could have been prevented very easily. I suspect that taking the course again when I began riding again would have done the trick.
If you have never taken an MSF course or, if you have not taken one recently, sign up. I'm going to real soon....
Your comment reminded me of something to watch out for when using a bicycle to train for MSF. There is a Federal law that requires bicycles imported or built in the USA to have the left brake lever for the front brake and the right brake lever for the rear brake where motorcycles have the right brake lever to the front brake. The caused some miserable stops for me in MSF since I tended to associate the right lever with the rear brake.
Your going to take it a second time? Why? MSF provides a pamphlet for the course work and the riding test patterns are painted on the concrete. I sometimes go over and ride the patterns just for fun and to remind myself how it seemed so impossible to do a year ago.