High horsepower bikes does not equal "more dangerous"

[aciurczak]

Actually, I think you left out the most important factor. Yes, some have very small contact patches, and yes, some have inferior brake hardware, but both of those items seem to be getting less and less prevalent in the cruiser market.

The most important factor, which has already been mentioned once or twice in this thread, is that the much longer wheelbase of a typical cruiser compared to a supersport, means it is not stoppie limited. At full braking force on the front of the bike, there is often still enough weight at the rear of the bike to provide more deceleration.

But as was also mentioned before, there's still a difference between comparing machines in a vacuum, and comparing the combination of rider & machine (which is relevant for the original thread topic, as well).

 

[Aluisious]

As far as cruiser stopping speed, I think major factors here are weight and tire size/composition.

Many modern cruisers will sometimes have front rubber comparable if not identical to sportbikes, but in general I see cruisers with much smaller heavily treaded tires made for longevity and style and not grip performance.

A vulcan I road recently looked to me like it had a bicycle tire in front compared to my zx. Also many cruisers are fairly weighty as a purpose of their design.

Another area where variamce could arise is in the brake technology itself. Specifics of design, materials and implementation I would assume is given more attention to race replicas than they are to the average cruiser. Not to say that cruiser brakes are not good, but that sportbike brakes are astounding.

Stefan

You do a lot of abstract theorizing, to the point that you undervalue experience.

Many cruisers stop better than sport bikes. The reasons regarding weight distribution are addressed by other posters, but that's not the point. They just do, regardless of whether you understand why.

Ditto the high horsepower bikes...there's a reason it would cost me twice to insure a 1k as it does to insure a 600. The insurance company has experience in the matter and has a pretty good idea how to set the rates accordingly.

You ought to balance your arguments better between how you think things should be and how people already know they are.

 

[MackeyStingray]

How the 600 class more often then not, runs a clean fast race without mishap. Notice mishaps start occurring in the 750 class and above.

what races are you watching?

 

[Lazerus]

Feanor, I appluad your zx10 purchase Quite a way to face those demons. I hope the bike is as theraputic as you intend it to be That is the first GOOD reason to own a liter bike that I have ever heard/ read.

Matt Lai, you and Feanor should start a cooperative blog. THAT would be and interesting read.
BTW, given your position on Feanor's ability to affect the thoughts and actions of others with his opinions, have you considered writing Kieth Code? He is absolutely certain to reach a much broader audience than Feanor.

 

[Feanor]

You do a lot of abstract theorizing, to the point that you undervalue experience.

Many cruisers stop better than sport bikes. The reasons regarding weight distribution are addressed by other posters, but that's not the point. They just do, regardless of whether you understand why.

Ditto the high horsepower bikes...there's a reason it would cost me twice to insure a 1k as it does to insure a 600. The insurance company has experience in the matter and has a pretty good idea how to set the rates accordingly.

You ought to balance your arguments better between how you think things should be and how people already know they are.

I can only value my own experience here it seems since I gave some credence to a man who had about a million more track and road motorcycle miles than I and just about everyone told me in this thread that "his" experience and opinions don't count.

I rode a Goldwing, and a Harley Electra-something, and a Vulcan, and a Griso, and using the same procedures to stop those bikes, they all seemed to take quite a bit more effort and percentage of their stopping potential than my ZX-6R and my 10R.

Now this isn't to say that my braking technique isn't "shitty" but in a different life before my accident I could consistently make my front wheel "howl" subtly under braking on the downward offramp off of 680 at my workplace while simultaneously dealing with the rear of the bike "wiggling" from side to side.

Everything I said in my braking post was based on my own hands on experience and was offered as a information I've felt firsthand.

It doesn't seem that either process suits you, citing experience of experts, or firsthand experience offered as suggestion.

I was riding down San Ramon road once being paced by Suzuki Boulevard, whose rider apparently felt that a sportbike should not be in front of him. We paced side by side and I saw the red light ahead. He disappeared off my left side and I wondered why he started braking so early. I came to a less than gentle stop before the crosswalk and he shot halfway thru the intersection! Instead of rolling back to maybe face my sideward glance, he opted to turn right and take off.

Now of course there are too many variables here to determine if my bike (zx-10) could stop better than his (a Boulevard) but if you assumed I was horrible at stopping, than what was his excuse? or his bikes contribution? Since I know he didn't want to run the light.

Stefan

 

[Feanor]

Actually, I think you left out the most important factor. Yes, some have very small contact patches, and yes, some have inferior brake hardware, but both of those items seem to be getting less and less prevalent in the cruiser market.

The most important factor, which has already been mentioned once or twice in this thread, is that the much longer wheelbase of a typical cruiser compared to a supersport, means it is not stoppie limited. At full braking force on the front of the bike, there is often still enough weight at the rear of the bike to provide more deceleration.

But as was also mentioned before, there's still a difference between comparing machines in a vacuum, and comparing the combination of rider & machine (which is relevant for the original thread topic, as well).

Completely agree! It seems like a smaller and smaller segment of the cruiser market is equipped with less capable brakes, but the issue of weight still looms large (no pun intended)

My ZX-10 only weighs a small percentage more than my ZX-6R did, but I can feel the additional weight, even in stopping and even with brakes that are very comparable. I would LOVE to know exactly what the real physics of the situation were when you pit geometry and weight on the back wheel (cruiser) against shorter wheelbase and 100 or more lbs less overall weight and better braking components (sportbike). It would be interesting!

Stefan

 

[Aluisious]

I can only value my own experience here it seems since I gave some credence to a man who had about a million more track and road motorcycle miles than I and just about everyone told me in this thread that "his" experience and opinions don't count.

I rode a Goldwing, and a Harley Electra-something, and a Vulcan, and a Griso, and using the same procedures to stop those bikes, they all seemed to take quite a bit more effort and percentage of their stopping potential than my ZX-6R and my 10R.

Now this isn't to say that my braking technique isn't "shitty" but in a different life before my accident I could consistently make my front wheel "howl" subtly under braking on the downward offramp off of 680 at my workplace while simultaneously dealing with the rear of the bike "wiggling" from side to side.

Everything I said in my braking post was based on my own hands on experience and was offered as a information I've felt firsthand.

It doesn't seem that either process suits you, citing experience of experts, or firsthand experience offered as suggestion.

I was riding down San Ramon road once being paced by Suzuki Boulevard, whose rider apparently felt that a sportbike should not be in front of him. We paced side by side and I saw the red light ahead. He disappeared off my left side and I wondered why he started braking so early. I came to a less than gentle stop before the crosswalk and he shot halfway thru the intersection! Instead of rolling back to maybe face my sideward glance, he opted to turn right and take off.

Now of course there are too many variables here to determine if my bike (zx-10) could stop better than his (a Boulevard) but if you assumed I was horrible at stopping, than what was his excuse? or his bikes contribution? Since I know he didn't want to run the light.

Stefan

That's all anecdotal and not terribly useful.

A little time on Google would get you results from people who have tested various motorcycles in controlled conditions and found empirically that some cruisers absolutely out-brake sport bikes.

Lee Parks, for example, used to do this kind of testing for motorcycle magazines.

I would LOVE to know exactly what the real physics of the situation were when you pit geometry and weight on the back wheel (cruiser) against shorter wheelbase and 100 or more lbs less overall weight and better braking components (sportbike). It would be interesting!

GOOGLE

 

[gixxerboy55]

Stefan there have been a number of braking test done by the bike mags, to lazy to look up right now, and there are some cruisers that DO stop in a shorter distance then sportbikes, and the weight does not affect the stopping distance as much as you think, as more weight applies more traction please do some research before you post.

 

[Lazerus]

^^^ using that logic, a fully loaded semi with a trailer should have a shorter stopping distance than a compact car. It has more rubber on the ground, AND more weight

From what I gather from Lee Park's book, the cruiser stopping distance is superior due to better weight DISTRIBUTION, and longer wheel base, allowing the rear brake to exert greater stopping force before the tire locks up.

 

[Feanor]

That's all anecdotal and not terribly useful.

A little time on Google would get you results from people who have tested various motorcycles in controlled conditions and found empirically that some cruisers absolutely out-brake sport bikes.

Lee Parks, for example, used to do this kind of testing for motorcycle magazines.

I appreciate the lead Al, I'll be looking into this information tonight. I have one of Lee Parks books (I can't recall the title right now) but I do remember in the book that he spoke about being in charge of brake testing and evaluation at one of the magazines he wrote for, and that he probably had more braking experience on more bikes than anyone.

Stefan

 

[gixxerboy55]

^^^ using that logic, a fully loaded semi with a trailer should have a shorter stopping distance than a compact car. It has more rubber on the ground, AND more weight

From what I gather from Lee Park's book, the cruiser stopping distance is superior due to better weight DISTRIBUTION, and longer wheel base, allowing the rear brake to exert greater stopping force before the tire locks up.

Sorry your wrong, there have been brake test riding two up, and there was very little differance in stopping distance.

 

[Feanor]

Stefan there have been a number of braking test done by the bike mags, to lazy to look up right now, and there are some cruisers that DO stop in a shorter distance then sportbikes, and the weight does not affect the stopping distance as much as you think, as more weight applies more traction please do some research before you post.

I have to admit that I tend to extrapolate from one discipline to another. From my experience helping friends in SCCA it was never an option to add more weight to the cars to increase traction and reduce braking distances. In fact, weight was always added to the cars as a penalty in order to equalize some teams deeper pockets and ability to use more of the exotic lightweight materials.

When people tell me that a cruiser will stop faster than a purpose built racebike BECAUSE it is heavier, it just rails on my sensibilities in an odd way (albeit wheelbase and wieght over the back wheel)

It kind of feels like the first time someone told me that drinking red wine was good for me. Or maybe how the people in cycling in the 40's felt when doctors told them that smoking during the Tour de France while riding didn't really "open up your lungs" and help you ride longer.

Stefan

 

[Z3n]

It's in total control.

I rode a Goldwing, and a Harley Electra-something, and a Vulcan, and a Griso, and using the same procedures to stop those bikes, they all seemed to take quite a bit more effort and percentage of their stopping potential than my ZX-6R and my 10R.

That's your problem. Those bikes are not stopped like sportbikes. They're stopped like cruisers. On a sportbike, you only have to manage the front traction patch. The bike has a short enough wheelbase that stoppies are the limiting factor, so you can let the back end wiggle, lift, whatever, you don't have to worry about braking and traction on the rear tire.

On a cruiser, there's so much weight so much farther back in the wheelbase, if you brake with the front, you'll lock the tire long before the back tire unweights significantly. You MUST use the rear brake, and use a lot of rear brake. Enough that on a sportbike the tire would probably be turning backwards. The typical sportbike dab at the rear brake to try and get the last bit of stopping power would be ineffective, you must get hard on both brakes to stop a cruiser. And when you do, they stop hellaciously fast.

 

[Aluisious]

On a cruiser, there's so much weight so much farther back in the wheelbase, if you brake with the front, you'll lock the tire long before the back tire unweights significantly. You MUST use the rear brake, and use a lot of rear brake.

I can attest to the accuracy of this analysis.

So can Kalakaua Avenue :|

 

[Feanor]

It's in total control.



That's your problem. Those bikes are not stopped like sportbikes. They're stopped like cruisers. On a sportbike, you only have to manage the front traction patch. The bike has a short enough wheelbase that stoppies are the limiting factor, so you can let the back end wiggle, lift, whatever, you don't have to worry about braking and traction on the rear tire.

On a cruiser, there's so much weight so much farther back in the wheelbase, if you brake with the front, you'll lock the tire long before the back tire unweights significantly. You MUST use the rear brake, and use a lot of rear brake. Enough that on a sportbike the tire would probably be turning backwards. The typical sportbike dab at the rear brake to try and get the last bit of stopping power would be ineffective, you must get hard on both brakes to stop a cruiser. And when you do, they stop hellaciously fast.

Actually I use both brakes all the time on the sportbike... (I think I'm the only one ) It made sense in MSF when they said that you do what you're used to for a panic stop... and even on the sportbike stopping in another 3-5 feet shorter distance might be the difference between being crunched and not.

So to confirm. I used the rear brake on the cruisers to stop, and even used more rear than I normally do on the sportbike only because I knew it was a cruiser. Again though, my timidness given the weight of the bikes and the fact that they weren't mine might have been the defining quality of my test

Still trying to google "stopping distance: cruiser vs sportbike" but nothing definitive coming up yet other than some comments about cruisers stopping faster than most think they can vs sportbikes.

Feanor

 

[gixxerboy55]

I have to admit that I tend to extrapolate from one discipline to another. From my experience helping friends in SCCA it was never an option to add more weight to the cars to increase traction and reduce braking distances. In fact, weight was always added to the cars as a penalty in order to equalize some teams deeper pockets and ability to use more of the exotic lightweight materials.

When people tell me that a cruiser will stop faster than a purpose built racebike BECAUSE it is heavier, it just rails on my sensibilities in an odd way (albeit wheelbase and wieght over the back wheel)

It kind of feels like the first time someone told me that drinking red wine was good for me. Or maybe how the people in cycling in the 40's felt when doctors told them that smoking during the Tour de France while riding didn't really "open up your lungs" and help you ride longer.

Stefan

Stefan i didn't say a cruiser will stop faster BECAUSE it's heavier i said the weight does not affect the stopping distance as much as you think as a 800 lbs cruiser does stop shorter than a 400 lbs sportbike.

 

[Feanor]

Stefan i didn't say a cruiser will stop faster BECAUSE it's heavier i said the weight does not affect the stopping distance as much as you think as a 800 lbs cruiser does stop shorter than a 400 lbs sportbike.

Will do...

The funny thing about all this is that I've taken to riding "the pace" and just recently road Palomares, Niles and Norris Canyon while staying OFF the brakes completely

Stefan

 

[Z3n]

No numbers, but I have Total Control right here and it says:

Right now, the best cruisers stop just as well, and more consistently, than sportbikes. As an example, a Honda Valkyrie or Suzuki Marauder 800 can outstop every racer-replica made prior to 2000.

The issue with most cruisers is with their harder tires. With soft tires, they'd easily outstop a sportbike, but with the harder stuff, they just about break even.

 

[aciurczak]

Stefan i didn't say a cruiser will stop faster BECAUSE it's heavier i said the weight does not affect the stopping distance as much as you think as a 800 lbs cruiser does stop shorter than a 400 lbs sportbike.

Exactly right. Because in reality, it's more like a 600 pound (sportbike + rider) compared to a 900 pound (cruiser + rider) comparison. More weight is always a negative for every vehicle, but within these parameters, the weight isn't the limiting factor for stopping distance. On the sportbike the limiting factor is the stoppie factor (plenty of front braking force, plenty of front traction). On the cruiser the limiting factor is the traction limits of the front and rear tires combined. With proper technique, that can allow for surprisingly short stopping distances, which does confuse sportbike riders, assuming their very high-performance machines are naturally better at everything than the not-so-high-performance cruiser market.

disclaimer: I don't ride a cruiser, only have read the same stats and stories that everybody else but Feanor has.

 

[Feanor]

No numbers, but I have Total Control right here and it says:



The issue with most cruisers is with their harder tires. With soft tires, they'd easily outstop a sportbike, but with the harder stuff, they just about break even.

I was actually just considering this argument from the reverse. How a drag bike will out accelerate another drag bike not equipped with that "anti-wheelie" rig... I suppose in a way that apparatus is simulating a much longer wheelbase, and eliminating a major factor limiting how much traction and control you can keep on the ground; the opposite being the stoppie, which limits sportbike braking performance. Would am automatic hydraulic adjustable length swingarm be illegal in MotoGP? you could have it deploy under heavy braking and under hard acceleration only, retracting only for cornering performance

Stefan