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High horsepower bikes does not equal "more dangerous"

Feanor said:
I was actually just considering this argument from the reverse. How a drag bike will out accelerate another drag bike not equipped with that "anti-wheelie" rig... I suppose in a way that apparatus is simulating a much longer wheelbase, and eliminating a major factor limiting how much traction and control you can keep on the ground.

Stefan
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Wheelie bars don't quite do that, but as an example, it'll do :)
 
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Much to your delight, an "expert" writing for a print magazine has finally published a definitive exposé which confirms the fact that your buying a ZX10 was not merely an emotional decision of a noob, but -- rather -- a supremely intelligent and rational act. I can only guess at the number of contrarian articles and expert opinion you must have slogged through to find your pearl
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I totally agree with your observation but we all have different reasons for choosing to buy a liter bike. I'm just lazy and don't like to shift all the time :) Seriously, for me it was just another challenge (throttle control, etc) and I do feel I'm at a higher sense of awareness when I ride it because it requires such. Plus chicks dig it!

As far as accident stats etc...There are far less liters on the road than 600s etc so of course there are always going to be less accidents. My 15 y.o. is just learning to ride and the only keys I hand him is to my crf230 because it's more forgiving, etc.
 
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aciurczak said:
More weight is always a negative for every vehicle, but within these parameters, the weight isn't the limiting factor for stopping distance. On the sportbike the limiting factor is the stoppie factor (plenty of front braking force, plenty of front traction). On the cruiser the limiting factor is the traction limits of the front and rear tires combined.
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Weight isn't as much of a limiting factor as you would think. If it were, we could expect the stopping distance delta between motorcycles, cars, and SUVs to be much greater than it currently is.

A friend of mine used to drive a bus. He could throw all the passengers through the front windshield if he set his mind to it.
 
Burning1 said:
Weight isn't as much of a limiting factor as you would think. If it were, we could expect the stopping distance delta between motorcycles, cars, and SUVs to be much greater than it currently is.

A friend of mine used to drive a bus. He could throw all the passengers through the front windshield if he set his mind to it.
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Well Obviously! because they're on straight backed slippery vinyl seats with no seat belts :laughing They wouldn't actually be "thrown" thru the windshield either, more like tumbled and rolled, and accelerated since you can build up a tremendous amount of speed while the bus executes continuous decelleration and you've got about 30 feet to the front windshield!

Oh course you realize that I'm just kidding though :laughing Several glasses of wine talking now... I was actually going to respond "I can throw people thru the windshield of a bus too! And the bus doesn't even have to be moving!

Stefan
 
How was the ride on my article?

I just looked through this whole thread. Sweet, some of you got the reason I wrote it.

Watching Moto GP, 250 and 125 world racing, my OPINION is that the 125s crash a good deal more often than the big bikes.

Personally, I would rather have 1000s at my schools instead of 600s. My opinion, only based on my observations, is that we'd have even fewer get offs, the number isn't very high, average 2, or less, per school day.

The most common cause of crashes, in my limited track experience, (10 million, + or - 500K miles) is that it isn't the HP. HP doesn't get riders into turns faster and once again only my experience but riders on big, fast bikes tend to get into turns slower (on the track). Just an observation, not backed up by anything more.

On the other hand, I have done some research. It involved developing a training program and the private training of several hundred riders in the very highest risk group. 85% ride sportbikes. The division between 600 and 1000s was roughly 50/50, I think a little higher for the big cc bikes (this is an estimate).

Over the past 4 years of this training, as it stands right now, the over 300 riders who went through this program have all managed to not only stay alive but they also had NO severe injuries. These were all street riders. This is verifiable information. It is extremely difficult to argue with or tamper with a 0 statistic.

Great thread although it has gotten way off topic http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/smilies/1.gif

Keith
 
Keith Code said:
I just looked through this whole thread. Sweet, some of you got the reason I wrote it.

Watching Moto GP, 250 and 125 world racing, my OPINION is that the 125s crash a good deal more often than the big bikes.

Personally, I would rather have 1000s at my schools instead of 600s. My opinion, only based on my observations, is that we'd have even fewer get offs, the number isn't very high, average 2, or less, per school day.

The most common cause of crashes, in my limited track experience, (10 million, + or - 500K miles) is that it isn't the HP. HP doesn't get riders into turns faster and once again only my experience but riders on big, fast bikes tend to get into turns slower (on the track). Just an observation, not backed up by anything more.

On the other hand, I have done some research. It involved developing a training program and the private training of several hundred riders in the very highest risk group. 85% ride sportbikes. The division between 600 and 1000s was roughly 50/50, I think a little higher for the big cc bikes (this is an estimate).

Over the past 4 years of this training, as it stands right now, the over 300 riders who went through this program have all managed to not only stay alive but they also had NO severe injuries. These were all street riders. This is verifiable information. It is extremely difficult to argue with or tamper with a 0 statistic.

Great thread although it has gotten way off topic http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/smilies/1.gif

Keith
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I will just say your observations are based on the track, not the street where conditions are much less controled.
 
Keith-

Pardon my ignorance, and no disrespect intended - but I'm not sure I get your point. I ride a light, smaller displacement bike, and would tend to be bolder on one. Personally, I'd be more careful on something more powerful. But my experience in these things is extremely limited. What do you attribute less mishaps on a litre bike to?

LB
 
gixxerboy55 said:
I will just say your observations are based on the track, not the street where conditions are much less controled.
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I think this is where a part of the disconnect in this thread comes from. The environment of the street compared to the track introduces extra variables which can confound identifying the "truth"

On the street, when you take a cross section of riders, you get a far flatter bell curve in regard to risk, because there are a greater number of people at the extremes on bikes, who shouldn't be on them (i.e. no training at all, operating from false assumptions, no assumptions etc)

At the track you typically have a more competent group in control conditions (fewer flyers)

On a high horsepower sportbike, (this is my opinion) two people will make throttle mistakes on exit leading to a low or highside 1. The clueless who whack the throttle on exit not knowing any better, and 2. The skilled, who overextend the traction limits of the rear tire thru power by riding close to the edge of the bike's performance.

But taking those groups out of the equation, we are left with a LARGE group of riders who repsect the bikes "meanness", and ride rationally and sensibly on the street. If they crash on the street for loss of rear tire traction, it's because of an anomaly in the road surface. Oil, fluids, leaves, sand, potholes. Something that a Ninja 250 would find as debilitating to control as a 180hp ZX-10r.

I've ridden both my wife's Monster (70hp) and my ZX-10r (150+hp) in the hills. THe only time I've ever blown a double yellow line because of excessive speed entering the corner was on the Monster.

Because the results of the throttle being "whacked" on exit is different between low and hi horsepower bikes doesn't mean you'll see more literbikes on the ground compared to 600, even after you adjust for differences in population of bikes.

Again, I only believe this to be true so you can only tell me I am wrong, not that what you might believe is what is the absolute truth.

I realize that the circulation of this information in a public forum infers responsibility, which I think is covered by the extensive references to TRAINING. In my mind, sportbikes are like guns, and like guns, it takes a whole series of errors in a row to result in tragedy wether we're talking 9mm or 44 magnum. The power of the weapon is only one factor, and perhaps not even close to the MAIN one.

p.s. I am NOT justifying my literbike! I couldn't care less. I actually bought it to piss off my brothers and sister. I would by another tomorrow if I didn't know my wife would be riding it. :|

Stefan

[/personalopinion] :)
 
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littlebeast said:
Keith-

Pardon my ignorance, and no disrespect intended - but I'm not sure I get your point. I ride a light, smaller displacement bike, and would tend to be bolder on one. Personally, I'd be more careful on something more powerful. But my experience in these things is extremely limited. What do you attribute less mishaps on a litre bike to?

LB
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The fact is most riders start out on a 600, and for a lot thats as far as they get. The ones that get up the nerve and have the money to move up to a litre bike, have more riding time and are better riders, in a nutshell litre bike riders are more muture
 
gixxerboy55 said:
The fact is most riders start out on a 600, and for a lot thats as far as they get. The ones that get up the nerve and have the money to move up to a litre bike, have more riding time and are better riders, in a nutshell litre bike riders are more muture
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yes. this was my thought too. which seems to make any argument around the relative safety of litre bikes somewhat skewed - and not really an endorsement of the bike. more of the rider. but as i said - i don't have enough experience to have a legitimate opinion.
 
Oh, the wife just popped in and adds, "what about when alot of power saves you from trouble?"

I have to admit, everyone here probably has a story about how extra squirt shot them past a bad situation where slowing down would have been worse. I think someone here spoke about taking off before getting rear ended and how the speed they attained moments before impact greatly lessened the effect. Maybe a rider on a 250 would have been worse off?

Stefan
 
Feanor said:
Or pressure per square inch :) A 60 ton Abrams will also slog thru a mud bog that would stop a Jeep 4x4 :)
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years ago i had a toyota 4X4 p/u that had a ridiculous power to weight ratio. it skipped across crap terrain like a water beetle. it was unstoppable. mostly because it was so damn light (unlike a tank), but had traction in spades.
 
Feanor said:
Oh, the wife just popped in and adds, "what about when alot of power saves you from trouble?"

I have to admit, everyone here probably has a story about how extra squirt shot them past a bad situation where slowing down would have been worse. I think someone here spoke about taking off before getting rear ended and how the speed they attained moments before impact greatly lessened the effect. Maybe a rider on a 250 would have been worse off?

Stefan
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No.
 
gixxerboy55 said:
I will just say your observations are based on the track, not the street where conditions are much less controled.
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Maybe just take a look at the last paragraph again.

Over the past 4 years of this training, as it stands right now, the over 300 riders who went through this program have all managed to not only stay alive but they also had NO severe injuries. These were all street riders. This is verifiable information. It is extremely difficult to argue with or tamper with a 0 statistic.

Keith
 
littlebeast said:
years ago i had a toyota 4X4 p/u that had a ridiculous power to weight ratio. it skipped across crap terrain like a water beetle. it was unstoppable. mostly because it was so damn light (unlike a tank), but had traction in spades.
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It was more a statement of ground pressure. Tanks are weighty and yet they cross sand and mud with relative ease. It's mainly because the tread is a HUGE surface area on the ground. Your pickup has four contact patches that probably equate to about a square foot of surface area. A tank as dozens of square feet to support its bulk so pressure per square inch for the 60 ton tank is probably less than your 2 ton pickup. That's why you might get bogged down in soft sand if you came to a standstill but a tank would just get up and go :)

Stefan
 
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