high side coming out of a fishtail

[Yoshiro]

Bike: 04 ZX6RR with Dunlop Sportmaxx GP
Story: I had previously known the Dunlop Sportmaxx GP were slick without proper warmup. But i keep forgetting that when i startup the bike. I'm taking a right turn out of a parking lot and accellerate mid turn. the turn was about 80% complete. The rear tires spin and i lose traction as the rear end swings out. At this point i dont remember if i hit the brakes or let go of the throttle. The bike fishtails 3 times and it throws me out in front of it.
Speed: approx 15-20mph
Bike Damage: windshield mainstay, windshield, both mirrors, front fairing, right fairing, right seat fairing, cowl cover, both rearsets bent, front and rear master brake snapped, handle bars tweeked, tank dented on right side, right hand lever broken, right Sato frame slider shattered and broke off, taillight cracked
Human damage: skin rash on both knees, right hip, right elbow, one hell of a sore right shoulder and neck. Helmet and jacket has nicks

What should i have done?

 

[Ironbutt]

I'm guessing you started to slip.. off then on then off then on the throttle.. --highside.. explains multiple back and forth.

you could have stayed on the throttle.. that would have kept the bike from going haywire.. but it helps to be ready for that.. and you weren't ready, obviously..

question is.. will it ever happen again?

 

[Archimedes]

How far leaned over were you coming out of the lot? I've seen guys bin it pulling out of parking lots just due to taking too much lean angle for the speed their going, then they get on the throttle to correct...tire spin...down.

I'd ask yourself why did you spin the tire in the first place. Granted any tire, especially the GP, won't grip as well when cold, but you still have to stress it to break it loose. I wouldn't just conclude cold tire. Did you have a lot of lean angle at low speed?

 

[Yoshiro]

i dont think i was on/off the throttle. my instint is to either keep it on or let it off.
Archimedes: not much of an angle. It was a typical exit. I wasnt trying to impress anyone. The bike has is well modded with power commander III. I've never had this issue with Pilot Powers.

 

[Archimedes]

Perhaps there was something on the road surface. I've never had a DOT race tire slide like that, even brand new unscrubbed ones. I'd have to say either road surface or throttle/lean mismatch. GPs are not that slick unless they were totally worn out.

 

[My900ss]

Your story in interesting in that you have absolute clarity and recollection of many small details, yet cannot recall other equally important facts. You know you were 80% complete with the turn, not 60% but 80%, the rear tire spins and steps out to the left, fish tails 3 times and spits you over the handlebars at 15-20mph.

You have enough clarity to count the number of times the bike fish tailed but you have no idea what you were doing with the throttle or the brakes?

Well it is simple you start with a motorcycle that is to powerful for you to control.
You mount tires that require more deft touch than you posses and you drive faster than you react to hence you crashed.

1. Get a 250 ninja and this accident does not happen.
2. Drive at 5mph in a parking lot and this accident does not happen.
3. Do not ride motorcycles if you truly believe that "cold" tires caused your crash in a parking lot and this accident will not happen.

 

[Yoshiro]

i remember most of the details from before the accident. I'm pretty sure it fished out left first since i was taking a right turn. it may have only fishtailed twice, only took a few seconds, so i'm guesstimating. I wasnt speeding in a parking lot, I was EXITing a parking lot onto the street. 15-20mph is a good estimate because the bike and I were 60 feet from the parking lot exit. The GP's are fine after 5 minutes, enough to accellerate in first and lift the front. It's just within the first 5 minutes, mild accelleration and braking from 5mph causes the tires to lose traction. Does the tire have a compound on it that will cause the tip of my finger to be slightly shiney if i swipe my finger accross the tread?

also for next time, during a fishtail, what happens if i grab the clutch (neutral). it should regain traction immediately right? or is this a bad idea due to chances of a snap oversteer?

 

[My900ss]

also for next time, during a fishtail, what happens if i grab the clutch (neutral). it should regain traction immediately right? or is this a bad idea due to chances of a snap oversteer?

You miss my point entirely. I absolutely guarantee that there are 1,000 of people that ride on the same tires as you and have no issues. If you want to learn how to control power slides, fishtails and snap over steers buy a dirt bike. If you want to not crash your street bike:

1. Get a 250 ninja.
2. Drive at 5mph in a parking lot.
3. Recognize that your tires had little to do with this accident. Your decision to ride a bike to powerful for you too fast in a parking lot, exiting a parking lot etc is what caused the accident. Less bike + less speed = no crash

 

[Coffae]

Sorry to hear of your mishap. Most of us can say we have been in a similar situation a time or so...

I do not know exactly what happened as I wasn't there. However, in a situation like this--where you lost traction, there are many reasons possible. The weather has been cooler lately and if it was evening and you were in a shaded area, there may have been a slight sheen of moisture on the road surface.

Any tire "sticks" better when warmed up, times may vary as per the tire as to how long it will take. The idea is to get to the point where it is a habit to go more "carefully" when you first start off, if it is a cold day/night, and/or slicker (or questionable) road surface. If your tires are new, they will be more slippery for up to 100 miles after mounting them.

Coming out of a parking lot will require you to lean the bike, and you know what this means--the contact patch is decreased at the moment where you want to gas it.

My guess is a combination of these possible factors where the cause of your initial slide. Now the idea is not necessarily to keep from sliding--because sliding comes part and parcel with riding. A bike tire's contact patch is slightly larger than the diameter of your fist. The idea is to be able to react in a way that keeps you from going down during a slide.

Here are some things to consider:
1. Do not use the brakes during a slide.
2. Keep a maintenance throttle on. Do not "chop" or let go of the throttle.
3. If your bike goes into a tank slapper or what you call fishtailing, relax and don't try to fight it. It happens so quickly, if you try to control it--you may actually be contributing to the fishtailing.

Hopefully you will have enough "room" for the bike to right itself and come back under control. The best thing you can do is hold on and don't panic. Less input is better--just enough to keep some throttle going.

 

[clutchslip]

3. If your bike goes into a tank slapper or what you call fishtailing, relax and don't try to fight it. It happens so quickly, if you try to control it--you may actually be contributing to the fishtailing.

Hopefully you will have enough "room" for the bike to right itself and come back under control. The best thing you can do is hold on and don't panic. Less input is better--just enough to keep some throttle going.

Tank slapper and fishtailing are completely different animals. Tank slap, more often a "head-shake" is the front end. Fishtail is the rear end.

You can do more with input to correct a fishtail than to correct a head-shake. As you point-out, minor adjustments are better than major ones. Dirt bikes do help you understand fishtails better. Usually, a fishtail is the result of too much input to correct a slide.

 

[Ironbutt]

also for next time, during a fishtail, what happens if i grab the clutch (neutral). it should regain traction immediately right? or is this a bad idea due to chances of a snap oversteer?

Well.. thats what I was talking about. You just asked the same question about what I think made you crash.. That you said you didn't do..

Your supposed to give it gas.

If your tire is spinning and your leaned over and you slow the tire down by braking or letting off the throttle.. it's going to snap the bike into the position of attention..

Command attention from your bike.. Give it gas. Let that tire spin and lean into the turn.. look into the turn.. step on the pegs.. don't let it mount you and start humping like a horny dog.

I think your being too timid.

 

[Dove]

Well.. thats what I was talking about. You just asked the same question about what I think made you crash.. That you said you didn't do..

Your supposed to give it gas.

If your tire is spinning and your leaned over and you slow the tire down by braking or letting off the throttle.. it's going to snap the bike into the position of attention..

Command attention from your bike.. Give it gas. Let that tire spin and lean into the turn.. look into the turn.. step on the pegs.. don't let it mount you and start humping like a horny dog.

I think your being too timid.

I commend you for taking the time to reply as the answer is in here but your making my head spin.

 

[Yoshiro]

ok point taken. keep throttle on, lean in and look into the turn

 

[ThinkFast]

What to do?

1. get a smaller (hp) bike (doesn't have to be a ninja 250 - an sv would do, too). Seriously. I mean - really consider this. Really.

2. wear full leathers (sounds like your knees took some damage they may not have taken had you been wearing leather pants - or were you?

 

[GPToyz]

umm in reality Sportmax GPs ARE NOT street tires.

I am not surprised this happens.

Why would street guys buy Sportmax GPs?
#1 They are expensive
#2 They don't last long
#3 They don't grip well when cold

Not to be a total A-hole but this situation probably could have been avoided by using a set of ultra high performance street tires, i.e. pilot power and some good attention to maintanence

 

[ThinkFast]

umm in reality Sportmax GPs ARE NOT street tires.

I am not surprised this happens.

Why would street guys buy Sportmax GPs?
#1 They are expensive
#2 They don't last long
#3 They don't grip well when cold

Not to be a total A-hole but this situation probably could have been avoided by using a set of ultra high performance street tires, i.e. pilot power and some good attention to maintanence

That, too.

 

[Enchanter]

ok point taken. keep throttle on, lean in and look into the turn

What can you do or change so that you do not find yourself in this situation in the future? That is the real lesson here.

 

[Burning1]

Why would street guys buy Sportmax GPs?
#1 They are expensive
#2 They don't last long
#3 They don't grip well when cold

To expand on point #3... They will most likely NEVER reach operating temperatures on the street. The kind of riding required to keep these tires at the optimal temperature would kill most riders on their first day.

#4 They are not designed to take the heat cycles of daily riding.
#5 The profile of a street tire puts more rubber on the road at sane lean angles.

I've run Dunlop Qualifiers and Metzler M3s on the track. At the correct pressure, both tires are capable of dragging a stock peg while hanging off.

It's worth noting that I have met people who run race take-offs on the street. From an economy perspective, I understand this idea. I don't believe it's the best choice for speed or safety, however.

FWIW, I currently run Avon Storm STs. I've found that they provide excellent rain grip, and can handle some fairly aggressive street riding.

 

[Archimedes]

It's worth noting that I have met people who run race take-offs on the street. From an economy perspective, I understand this idea. I don't believe it's the best choice for speed or safety, however.

Shhhh! Don't say that too loud or someone from the Racer's forum will hear you. I got butt raped over there a couple days ago for suggesting that race take offs on the street might be less than a fab idea...

 

[RhythmRider]

Cornering Theory (split from High side thread in Crash Analysis)

To combine the thinking of My900ss and HRCToys would be to say, ultimately, that the tires can't be blamed for this crash. The primary cause of this crash, in my opinion, is wrong tire choice. I don't know much about the F3, and I know the ninja 250 can teach a lot, but I think a better choice of street tires most likely would have forgiven your throttle mistake.