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how to downshift, blip throttle and brake at the same time?

christofu said:
When these type of "how do I blip" posts started coming up I thought that it was a few misguided learners. But it's now obvious that I'm in a minority (of one). I just don't get the reason behind blipping. I doesn't make sense to my poor racer's mind.
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You aren't in a minority of one. Two perhaps, cuz I do the same thing. And I find I do alright.

Though I could use a bit of edumacation as well. I can't manage to reach around and get a hold of the brake lever while blipping the throttle. Perhaps it is just me.
 
Frag said:
You aren't in a minority of one. Two perhaps, cuz I do the same thing. And I find I do alright.

Though I could use a bit of edumacation as well. I can't manage to reach around and get a hold of the brake lever while blipping the throttle. Perhaps it is just me.
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If your brake lever is adjustable, try putting it on a setting that moves it closer to the handgrip. Also, loosen the bolts holding the entire brake assembly on the handlebar, tilt it down a little and then retighten.

I like being able to control throttle and brake at the same time, because I regularly trail brake into turns. But I don't blip. Oh, no. Never blip.
 
christofu said:

I like being able to control throttle and brake at the same time, because I regularly trail brake into turns.
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By the way, when I trail brake I use all four fingers on the brake lever and control the throttle with my thumb and palm. Seems to work pretty well!
 
Thanks everyone! These are some great info! I was just asking somebody about this.
 
christofu said:
By the way, when I trail brake I use all four fingers on the brake lever and control the throttle with my thumb and palm. Seems to work pretty well!
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Whoa. I trail brake alot, and I just realized I have *no* idea how I do it. Other than I do it :laughing
 
Mstingray said:
so it's better to downshift first then brake?
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At STAR, Pridmore was telling us to have your downshifting completed before braking. This was news to me. I've been doing it wrong all along for years! Have trouble with this concept since I have to unlearn some habits. Practice makes perfect, I guess...
 
but if you're really high up in the revs, wouldn't you start hitting the rev limiter if you downshift 1st before brake?

now i'm all confused. :confused i think i'll just lug it through the turns like i usually do. :laughing
 
Mstingray said:
but if you're really high up in the revs, wouldn't you start hitting the rev limiter if you downshift 1st before brake?

now i'm all confused. :confused i think i'll just lug it through the turns like i usually do. :laughing
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Actually, from what I understood, Jason uses the engine braking a lot. So think about downshifting as part of the braking process. He uses the clutch lever the way we would use the brake lever to slow the bike down and to control the sliding of the rear wheel...

Since this is way too advanced for me, I try to think of downshifting as the first part of the braking process and actually using the brakes as the second part...

The rev limiter does not matter when downshifting, it only acts on the throttle. Hope that makes sense...
 
ah, k. i also tend to use alot of engine braking as well.

The rev limiter does not matter when downshifting, it only acts on the throttle.
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well, the engine can only wind up so high right? so if it's almost at max revs and you're downshifting, wouldn't it screw up the bike? :confused (e.g. 10k RPM (almost rev limit on TLR) on 3rd gear, then downshift to 2nd.) i'd imagine it'd lock up the rear, make it start skipping and/or just totally fuck up the engine/tranny/internals.
 
Well, I don't think that you'd damage the engine but you'd definitely lock the rear. That is where clutch control comes into place... I still can't do it, too many things to do in a too short period of time for me. Maybe after 500 trackdays... ;)
 
JoeBar said:
Well, I don't think that you'd damage the engine but you'd definitely lock the rear. That is where clutch control comes into place... I still can't do it, too many things to do in a too short period of time for me. Maybe after 500 trackdays... ;)
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It's actually easier than it sounds... I do it naturally. I just assumed that everyone does exactly the same thing. After all, we all learned to drive in cars with stick shifts (or "manuals" where I come from), right? Same concept.

In a stick shift car you can't brake AND accelerate at the same time. Unless you have very wide feet or have perfected the super-advanced heel-toe thingy. Your right foot is either braking or accelerating. That's why NOT blipping the throttle seems so natural to me. Use left foot for clutch control, which controls the amount of power that can be transmitted through the drive. Use right foot for braking.

On a bike, especially when racing, I just release the throttle, grab the brakes and start dropping down gears using the clutch to control how much power is transmitted through the drive. Just reading that back it sounds really complex but it's not. I don't really even think about it (unless I'm pondering why people feel a desire to blip).
There is a possibility that you'll over-rev your engine, but not much and it would be for the smallest fraction of a second if you did. Hell, I do this on my 250 2-stroke and it has zero engine braking. It's just a matter of downshift timing, which you get used to. I mean, say you were cruising down the straight at redline in 6th. Just the act of letting off the throttle is going to immediately drop your revs dramatically, certainly enough to downshift immediately.

You can't really hurt your bike doing this because the rev situation is self correcting. Also, this entire time, your right hand has been doing nothing but braking which means that all the clutching and shifting is really just matching the engine speed to the road speed anyway. Also, you have had to use one less control, and less is more.

Perhaps I shouldn't be talking about this. I can outbrake just about everyone I know... perhaps this is why. Shut up, Chris, shut up :shhh
 
Ok here are the two methods stated so far. so correct me if I'm wrong...

Your entering a hard left a few moments after coming out of a switchback, your're at about 9 on 5th. SO

Method 1) Let off the throttle, brake with front and rear, clutch in, downshift, blip (and this is where I get lost) reengage clutch while the brakes are still on or off? What I mean is, when you let the clutch back in do you let go of the brakes and get back on the gas or do you still hold onto the brakes?

Method 2 (according to Christofu) Let off the throttle, brake, disengage clutch downshift and then reengage clutch according to engine speed (again I get confused here) while brakes are still on?

Sorry if I don't have it down so please correct me. What I'm confused about (for both processes) is when to let go of the clutch- before you let go of the brakes, or after...
 
My understanding is that you downshift at the very beginning of the braking and that, at no time, you want to be coasting. So as soon as you've downshifted, you reengage the clutch but not abruptly (that's the part I have problems with, I let go the clutch because I am already too busy with everything else going on... :)) and use both clutch and brakes to slow you down.
 
Right but that's what everyone's saying, the bike surges forward when you do that and at the same time you're trying to decelerate the whole thing.

The way I down shift in my car is that I'll brake, disengage the clutch, blip the thottle and then get back on the gas. But for some reason it seems so much more complicated on a bike? The heel and toe method that christofu works almost the same way however, you blip the throttle WHILE you brake...that's why they sell those aftermarket footpedals you see at import car shops.

But at no time do you reengage the clutch while braking.
 
Agent Orange said:


But at no time do you reengage the clutch while braking.
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Well, this is an education in how many different ways people do stuff.

Yes, I grab the brakes and stay on them the entire time at pretty much constant pressure (sometimes light, sometimes hard) until I reach the appropriate turn in speed.

Meanwhile, the other hand is working the clutch and the foot is downshifting. When you let out the clutch the engine can be in one of three states (1) Your speed is too slow for the new gear ratio you just selected and the engine lugs; (2) Your speed is just right for the new gear ratio you just selected and the engine revs up a bit and then continues to drop; or (3) Your speed is too fast for the new gear ratio and the engine revs hard and produces a ton of engine braking.

Ideally we want scenario (2). If you get scenario (1), downshift again immediately to get the engine back on the pipe. If you get scenario (3) brake a little harder until the revs get back down to the ideal range for the bike (about 1 second's work or less) and let the clutch out a little slower.

You really blip the throttle when you downshift in your car, under braking? Wow.
 
No No I just mean that that's what you do with the heel and toe method. In my car for smoother downshifts, right before I get back on the gas, I blip it. Of course my right foot has to be off the brake in order for me to do that.
 
Agent Orange said:
No No I just mean that that's what you do with the heel and toe method. In my car for smoother downshifts, right before I get back on the gas, I blip it. Of course my right foot has to be off the brake in order for me to do that.
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I used to use the heel and toe method to downshift in my 1984 Golf GTI on the little twisty roads in France (where I am from:)) but that was a loooong time ago... ;)
 
JoeBar said:
I used to use the heel and toe method to downshift in my 1984 Golf GTI on the little twisty roads in France (where I am from:)) but that was a loooong time ago... ;)
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That doesn't mean anything because we all know that the french are just plain crazy :p

I've driven in Paris several times and lived to tell the story. Barely :laughing
 
OK, since you're asking for it, here is a picture of my Golf... :laughing

126669-golf-gti-02.jpg
 
christofu said:
That doesn't mean anything because we all know that the french are just plain crazy :p
I've driven in Paris several times and lived to tell the story. Barely :laughing
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Hey there! :laughing
Actually you're right. I learned to ride on a Cagiva 125 in Paris. I totally sucked in turns (I still do) but was an expert with lane splitting and stoppies ;) :p
 
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