kell
New member
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Inteligent, Fact Based Discussion: Car vs Bike
- Thread starter Igor
- Start date
Cheyenne
New member
Looks like the actual evidence trumps the car guys anecdotes again
Yeah...when using overweight cars.
The real difference is that nobody builds a street car to similar specs as a "street" bike, which is really the same as a club race car...check the lap times for those vehicles, and things start getting close...or ugly, with the 1:45 by a 997 RSR. That's 2750# and 450HP. (Still a heavy, slow car, by race standards)
I'm sure they would cost a lot less if as many people bought them as buy sportbikes, but people don't pose in cars with real performance, they buy Z06 'Vettes for that.
At the end of the day, motorcycles that are compromised for race performance get beat by cars that are set up for race performance too. Nobody will even compare non race style motorcycle times...want to see what a z1000, or vmax will do at Thill?
You can call all the caveats you want for "street legal" but at the end of the day, the fastest motorcycles get matched by the slowest race cars...and fall behind further from there.
The only thing you can say about bikes is that they're cheap. Oh, and really, really fun.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
want to see what a z1000, or vmax will do at Thill?
I'd put Z1000 up against a gran turismo car, or the VMAX against a muscle car.
There are a few vehicles that compare to the technological sophistication and equipment of a stock sport bike, and I would love to see a comparison. A GT40 or F430 against an R1 would make for a very interesting 'put up or shut up' race.
Of course... When you're spending that much on a car, it would probably be better to put it against a bike like the 1198R, F4CC, or Desmosedici.
A stock GSX-R1000 represents the state of motorcycling just as well as a Corvette represents the state of automotive development.
Dr. Evil
Mother of God.
Ah, I hate to be the engineering student dickhead here, but, that is part of what makes up the aggregate concept of the CoF.
So much for fact base arguments. Here comes the BS avalanche.
Audacious Nick
Predictably unpredictable
Just look at the fast lap times for Laguna for cars versus bikes.
Cheyenne
New member
So why then, do wide tires work so fucking well?? Engineering profs have been making fools out of themselves for decades with this...ever since "stupid" kids that didn't know physics started going faster with bigger tires.
Corb: So what is the base argument, that motorcycles are cheap and small? Or that modern perf cars are fat and weak?
Nobody argues that motorcycles are the fastest thing out there. Yes purpose build proper racecars are faster. Everybody knows that.
Street legal vs street legal however things are much more different because street legal bikes are much closer to proper racekit that most street cars are.
Even compared to hardcore cars like the GT3RS or the an Exige.
.
Corb: So what is the base argument, that motorcycles are cheap and small? Or that modern perf cars are fat and weak?
Neither, just give credit were credit is due. Both cars and bikes are fun in theyre own way.
Cheyenne
New member
Where does a street legal Porsche 914 with an aluminum 454 stuffed in it sit in all this?
Wouldn't be too expensive or hard...wouldn't be civilized really, but in the right hands could be pretty fast...
Corb, there is a reason I got a 600 as my first bike...cars that I can, or will, barring a lotto win, ever get to have will never touch the performance of the bikes I can get for less than $2000. But I can still clearly feel what I'm giving up. I may be faster over a section of road, but it's all acceleration(and a little bit of narrow), and that makes bikes kinda one dimensional.
You say: Neither, just give credit were credit is due. Both cars and bikes are fun in theyre own way.
I say: Hell Yeah! Sorry..I just like to argue too much sometimes.
iamrob
I LIKE MOTORCYCLES LOL
Don't care much which is faster as long as im smilin 
Its not the bikes that are one dimensional dude. Its you. Learn to ride the bike fast around corners and you will understand.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
One other reason Bikes will tend to be faster than cars... I'm willing to crash an R1. 
Shunter/Get-Off
Member
For a blanket statement, I'd say that street bikes beat street cars, and race cars beat race bikes, but there are going to be notable exceptions.
As for the 1:57 at Thill, I've done a 2:01 in a pretty much stock 2001 Volkswagen GTI on Nitto NT-01's (not my favorite, kind of at the bottom of the list, actually). Give me a new GT2 and some Hoosier R6's and I don't think 1:57 would be tough at all.
The problem is that it's such a broad comparison, and that no one would buy a car that is as hardcore as a sportbike these days. The few being made are such fringe automobiles that they don't really merit inclusion in the discussion (there is a world of difference between a Z06 and a Caparo or whatever it is).
Mike
Mike
As for the 1:57 at Thill, I've done a 2:01 in a pretty much stock 2001 Volkswagen GTI on Nitto NT-01's (not my favorite, kind of at the bottom of the list, actually). Give me a new GT2 and some Hoosier R6's and I don't think 1:57 would be tough at all.
The problem is that it's such a broad comparison, and that no one would buy a car that is as hardcore as a sportbike these days. The few being made are such fringe automobiles that they don't really merit inclusion in the discussion (there is a world of difference between a Z06 and a Caparo or whatever it is).
Mike
Mike
Igor..!!! Long time no see...
as motorcycle vs car, heck, I just have fun watching the comparison..
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GREAT VIDEO. I always wondered what a supermotard bike would do against a WRC car. Bike was showboating and the driver was fucking pissed he got owned!
The times also show the same on track bikes. A slower tighter course, the bike does comparitivly worse than on fast tracks.
ONLY in very, very tight and small tracks can a sports car "may" win - by the stop watch. The fact is that there have been serveral tests like these over the years and unless it is rat trap track, the bike always wins regardless if it is porsche turbo or a vette...
However, a full on race car will beat a bike, a superbike or motogp bike for that matter.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
To be fair, that road is effectively twice as wide for the bike as it is for the car. The bike can straighten out a lot of corners that tend to confine the WRX.
kell
New member
Get that car in to racing ASAP you'll clean up!
Considering according to the SCCA the lap record for the STU Class is a 2.04.6 in a 2009 Mazda of some variety, on the Thunderhill 2.866 mile config (which I think* has the cutoff Turn 5), respectfully I find a claim of a 2.01 in a 8 year old stock GTI a bit hard to believe. Can you provide some evidence or data to support the claim?
Sources
http://www.thunderhill.com/CurrentThunderhill_Records3_09.pdf
http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/solo_categories.pdf
*Perhaps I misuderstaning car categories and the data which I'll admit is a possibility.
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Shunter/Get-Off
Member
That car was racing. That's why we were at Thunderhill in the first place.
Look up the laptimes of Wasabi Racing on Mylaps for the 25 hour. You'll find that when Ian, Pat, or myself were in the car, it's average pace was in the low 2:03's. Fastest lap was a 2:01.6 by Pat, and I got one a few tenths behind at some point. We finished 18th overall and 8th in class (E0, i think), so the car isn't in danger of cleaning up anywhere, ASAP or otherwise.
Mike
Look up the laptimes of Wasabi Racing on Mylaps for the 25 hour. You'll find that when Ian, Pat, or myself were in the car, it's average pace was in the low 2:03's. Fastest lap was a 2:01.6 by Pat, and I got one a few tenths behind at some point. We finished 18th overall and 8th in class (E0, i think), so the car isn't in danger of cleaning up anywhere, ASAP or otherwise.
Mike
The video shows at the end the times of 2 sections: A tight section and a fast section. In the fast section the bike beats the car by almost 4 secs and i think in the tight section, the bike beat the car by about 2 seconds. Since it is appears that it is a relatively short chrono, the differential would much,much greater over a longer distance.
From other years of comparos, aside from what has been factually posted...the bike, that i know of, has always won. Usually by much smaller margin in tight tracks which favors cars. The same happened on rally video.
Clearly in tight turns the car's greater grip is more effetive than higher speeds. Thus corner speed differentials in very slow corners are significant. In F1, with ground effects, the speed differential in slow corners compared to a motogp bike is often twice the speed (mind boggling)! In faster corners, there is little or no car advantage, but in the end an F1 car will lap some 20-23 seconds faster than a motogp bike.
Back to the rally video. It is especially interesting because the car is a full blown WRC car and not a stock car - say like a carrera four. Granted the supermotard bike is a race bike, unlike a bone stock one..but the level of prep is far less. And yet the bike does very well.
If this was comparing a World Touring Car racecar compared to a WSBK, the car would decimate the bike. In fact, the lap times says it all.
Anways, stock for stock... it seem to me if you pitt the very best road car against the very best road bike with equal level riders, the bike would win. Not to mention that you can ride a pro could ride the streetbike all day and use a couple sets of tires; whereas the road car would be eating several sets in the same period, along with brake pads and let's face it... a car that would be falling appart (as it twists).
Cheyenne
New member
How many g's can a bike pull? I was under the impression they just weren't capable of putting up the kind of numbers cars could, especially if the car had sticky tires like the bike. I could be wrong.