Inteligent, Fact Based Discussion: Car vs Bike

[Bluenote]

Thanks Corb.

Looks like the actual evidence trumps the car guys anecdotes again

So now those of stating realities are 'car guys'? Hows that work? And if you're going to start disqualifying vehicles based upon nebulous criteria ( your open wheel comments) then apply equal time to bikes.

I don't deal in the anecdotal , I deal with the real world facts , and the facts are that at any given track the lap records are held by something fourwheeled , the facts are that many a rider has had their hat handed to them on a mountain road by a competent driver in a car with a considerably inferior power to weight ratio when compared to a bike. The facts are that *any* sport bike is considerably closer to 'racing machinery' than all but the most exotic cars.

And in general this is a oft returning and relatively useless arguement because those such as you who'll insist that any bike can smoke any car will do so until they actually encounter a car/driver combo who has them off.

It's a given fact that bikes have superior acceleration , it's also a given fact that some cars are quicker through a given corner.



B.

 

[Corb]

I don't deal in the anecdotal , I deal with the real world facts , and the facts are that at any given track the lap records are held by something fourwheeled ,


Already aknowledged fact


the facts are that many a rider has had their hat handed to them on a mountain road by a competent driver in a car with a considerably inferior power to weight ratio when compared to a bike.

Same can be said for many a sport car driver. I got plenty stories from personal experience and from friends who smoked car guys that got coky.



The facts are that *any* sport bike is considerably closer to 'racing machinery' than all but the most exotic cars.


Another aready estabilished fact.

And in general this is a oft returning and relatively useless arguement because those such as you who'll insist that any bike can smoke any car will do so until they actually encounter a car/driver combo who has them off.


Whos the retard that claimed such nonsense?
Of course there are faster driver/car combos than any bike/rider combo on this forum, just as there are plenty riders who could smoke any car/driver combo you will find on a car forum.
Fast is relative, on the street it often comes to who is willing to risk more than to who has the best machine and/or skills.


It's a given fact that bikes have superior acceleration , it's also a given fact that some cars are quicker through a given corner.

somewhat of a generalization, cars aren't actually much faster around corners [and yes, were discussing street legal cars here]
They're advantage is beeing able to brake later, harder and deeper in to corners. That said bikes can keep a tighter line, use less road and accelerate harder from the apex.
So it depends what corner it is before you can give the advantage to a car.

Btw as a side note. I'm a big fan of the Nurburgring and if you look in to it at the unoficial tourist "Bridge to Gantry" laps. The fastest car guys are nowere near close to the fastest motorcycle guys.

Ring expert Sabine Schmitz driving an M5 "ring taxi" being folowed by a local guy riding an R1. [ btw the bike guy has gone much faster than this lap time]

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[Bluenote]

Ok guys compare this , Sears Point ( I refuse to call it Infineon , it'll always be Sears to me) full course , not the Indy layout or the Nascar layout.


Ben Spies on the Suzuki Superbike in qualifying for the 2006 race...1:35:893 (83.343 average)

Marco Werner Audi A-8 ( granted this is a GTP car but hey it's not open wheel) 1:21.688...........(110.641 average)


As far as the Nascar tanks , they run around the minute 16 mark on the 1.99 mile layout , and they ARE tanks.


And folks? To a certain degree we're comparing apples to oranges , and some of us like both apples and oranges , as has been pointed out the quality of the rider/driver contributes a great deal to the equation and it's a bit harder to ride a bike well than it is to drive a car well. In any real world contest of speed that any of us mortals might get into with a car it's going to be the superior acceleration of a bike that might allow us to prevail. As has been pointed out with the Skyline/ZX10 comparison even a FAST car ( in that case 589 horses) is an also ran compared to a 150-160 horse motorcycle at speeds below a 150 mph , do the math yourself on the power to weight ratios and ascertain the levels of horsepower a 2500 and up ( mostly UP) lb car needs to duplicate the acceleration of one of todays literbikes or hyperbikes.

And comparing laptimes laid down by such folks as Chandler and Wagner is relatively meaningless as regards us mere mortals , how many of us on this board are actually capable of sub two minute laps at Sears or Thunderhill? A few undoubtedly but sure as hell not the majority of us.

And keep in mind that we seem to be talking about sportbikes , once we get away from sportbikes the gap grows , anyone car to try to match that theoretical welldriven WRX on something like a ST1100? A Gladius? A KLR? Any of the cruiser bikes?

It's an interesting subject for debate/discussion , but face it we'll never arrive at the definitive answer to this question , so it of course will arise again at some point.



B.

 

[Bluenote]

Btw as a side note. I'm a big fan of the Nurburgring and if you look in to it at the unoficial tourist "Bridge to Gantry" laps. The fastest car guys are nowere near close to the fastest motorcycle guys.

Ring expert Sabine Schmitz driving an M5 "ring taxi" being folowed by a local guy riding an R1. [ btw the bike guy has gone much faster than this lap time]

[e]

And you go a ways towards proving my point , while an M5 is a fairly fast car ,it in no way compares to an R1. The M5 is a fast Gran Touring sedan NOT a 'supersport'.

Further up the thread someone else posted something at the 'Ring , their statement was ( unless I misread it ,correct me if I'm wrong) that the 'car guys' were always having to wait on the 'motorcycle guys'.

Anyway , from the rest of your post it sounds like we're actually closer to agreement than disagreement , with the minor difference that I have more respect for a cars cornering speed than you do , but then I worked for Garretson Enterprises for a few years.

Anyhow , I *do* enjoy a good go with a car occasionally , provided the driver looks like he can be trusted no to bunt me off the side of the mountain by spinning it , that said I tend to play to the strengths of my bike , which means that on my current one ( GSXR1000) I'll hang back a bit and use the massive acceleration advantage to just go on by when the opportunity arises.
If the driver is too squirrely , I'll just throttle it back and let 'em go, if they're running a pace that's going to have them up my ass in a given set of corners , especially at the entrance then I'll just let go then too. No percentage in letting ones ego get the best of one on the street 'eh?

It would be interesting to get apex speeds on both in a given corner though wouldn't it? As you stated I believe the car will be faster into the corner and through the apex , bike will be faster off the corner where the acceleration factor comes into play.



B.

 

[Burning1]

Bluenote, insistence on seeing this question in black and white is a large part of what makes this discussion so heated and frustrating.

Your argument can be summed up: The fastest, most expensive cars are faster than the fastest, most expensive bikes.

No one is arguing that. F1, CART, Et. al. are at the peak of automotive development. In this price range, there are very significant performance advantages to the basic layout of a car.

Now, can you please start considering other aspects of this discussion?

 

[Z3n]

From Trackpedia:
Buttonwillow

1969 BMW 1602 C-Sedan 120hp (VARA) 2:16 (13CW)
Spec Focus 2:09 (13CW)
Porsche 944 spec 2:07.8
Porsche 993 Modified street car (Star Mazda) 2:04.6

My best time at BW on my SV650 is in the 2:03 range. I don't have a good time from racing this year due to crashing and mechanical issues.

Race winners lap in the 1:56s.

Infineon:

2001 Miata LS 2:07.60
Porsche 944 spec car 2:02.045
Spec E30, Donny Edwards, 5/5/2007 1.59.959
Spec Miata 1:54.400
2003 Mitsubishi Evo 8 #42 NASA TTB 1:53.512
Spec Racer Ford 1:52.181

My best time at infineon:

01:57.250
Race winners lap in the 1:47s.
Thunderhill:

Shed Racing 1983 VW Rabbit GTI Cup driven by Ron Swett 2:13.567
Porsche 944 spec 2:12.9
Stock Acura NSX w/street tires driven by Kenji Morishige 2:09 with bypass, 2:11 w/o bypass
Prima Racing 1992 Civic EG driven by Kenji Morishige 2:09.xx
Spec E30, Donny Edwards 2:08.712 8/23/2008 NASA Race w/bypass
Spec Miata 2:08.235
2003 Mitsubishi Evo 8 #42 NASA TTB driven by Yang Tang 2:02.254
Porsche 997 GT3 RS with prof driver 2:02
Prima Racing 1999 Civic Si driven by Andrie Hartanto 2:02.869
Spec Racer Ford 2:02.491
Porsche 997RSR with professional driver 1:45
D Sports Racer race record, John Hill, Stohr WF1, 03/18/2006 1:42.071, 2.866 miles, 16 turns CCW w/o bypass

My best time at thill:
02:04.555

Race winners lap in the 1:57s.

Just a little more fuel for the fire. I'm a firmly midpack SV650 racer, around 6-7 seconds behind the guys that win races. I only had about 2 trackdays worth of time at Infineon when I pulled the 1:57, and am about 10 seconds behind the fastest guys there.

SV650 against cars that normal people drive. At the time, my SV had suspension mods and that was pretty much it. I rode an SV that was just as "set up" on the street.

As to street riding, as always, it comes down to who hangs their balls out the most. In a hillclimb type situation, where you knew the road, could safely drive balls out, I'm 90% sure that a literbike would beat any car that could be driven to the event. Maybe even some race cars.

You really want something where you can take advantage of the bike's superior acceleration advantage to 150 or so, but not allow the cars to make up too much time at higher speeds past that. Ideally with a lot of chicanes that a bike can straight line but a car has to slow for. Of course, if you're riding like that on the street, you're not long for this world...

 

[Bluenote]

Bluenote, insistence on seeing this question in black and white is a large part of what makes this discussion so heated and frustrating.

Your argument can be summed up: The fastest, most expensive cars are faster than the fastest, most expensive bikes.

No one is arguing that. F1, CART, Et. al. are at the peak of automotive development. In this price range, there are very significant performance advantages to the basic layout of a car.

Now, can you please start considering other aspects of this discussion?

Oh for crying out loud . where has the discussion even gotten anywhere near "heated"? And you've apparently missed where *street* cars have been discussed in favor of focusing on the point that I and others have pointed out the outright lap record factor. Unfortunately you've missed the fact that a comparison of overweight sedans such as an M5 to modern supersport bikes is pointless. Said bikes are infinitely more comparable to cars like a 430 or a RUF Porsche.

As for your accusation of seeing this whole issue in 'black and white' , that criticism is misplaced , I most assuredly do not see it that way. I'm a fan of both cars and motorcycles , I see benefits to both ,I enjoy both.

And seeing as how you seem to think the discussion is getting 'heated and frustrating' I'll bow out , I don't really think it's a requirement that I or anyone else share a specific opinion , seemingly you do.



B.

 

[Cheyenne]

Well, all this talk has been fun, but I think it's time to put up or shut up.

Pick the fastest one of you, and I'll race my 3400#/220HP 93 Stealth...




Down Alpine road from 35, first really rainy day of the season. Loser buys coffee.



For the humor impaired: Duh, I'm not gonna race for just coffee...

 

[mhpcto]

Racing on 9 is a bit like playing chicken. The person willing to take the greatest risk can usually win.

Pretty much!

Again - advantage car. It feels much safer (and actually is) to push a car to its limits. I mean a capable, serious sports car, not a Camry or a Jetta or what not.

I nominate the guy in the blue WRX STi - I've never been able to keep up with that lunatic because self preservation took over.

 

[Charles R]

The Porsche Cup cars can turn 1:48's at T-hill. (Couple years ago at the 25-hour...Race between one of them and a radical. Radical broke, so the Cup car 'slowed' to a 1:55+ pace. this is using the bypass, add 2 seconds to equal a turn-5 included lap.)

Really, sans downforce, both are always going to be close due to the tires. Modern performance rubber nets roughly 1.3 G's regardless of whether it's on a bike or a car. (slicks, drag and otherwise, are another game)

The differences and similarities from the contact point up pretty much make it a wash. But I feel it does take a better rider to best a lesser driver primarily due to the 'control' environments each are placed in.

(BTW, I'll jump on that "CAR vs. BIKE" race if you guys do it on a Kart track. )

 

[mosquito]

I'll sponsor that race with a cuppa for all.

 

[jraice]

Pretty much!

Again - advantage car. It feels much safer (and actually is) to push a car to its limits. I mean a capable, serious sports car, not a Camry or a Jetta or what not.

I nominate the guy in the blue WRX STi - I've never been able to keep up with that lunatic because self preservation took over.

Young high school aged kid with blonde hair? CF hood?

Know him... Totaled his first car before getting the WRX because he "swerved to miss a deer" on Quito in the rain... rightttttt.

He drives fairly fast, as does another kid at my school with an older white M3 who regularly does drifts on skyline fairly deep into the triple digits.

Crazy MF's, but hey, we all ride our bikes pretty fast to.

 

[Aluisious]

Young high school aged kid with blonde hair? CF hood?

Know him... Totaled his first car before getting the WRX because he "swerved to miss a deer" on Quito in the rain... rightttttt.

He drives fairly fast, as does another kid at my school with an older white M3 who regularly does drifts on skyline fairly deep into the triple digits.

Crazy MF's, but hey, we all ride our bikes pretty fast to.

I think I've seen your white M3 friend drifting through my lane on Skyline. Do us all a favor, and break all his fingers the next time you see him.

 

[sliverstorm]

Crazy MF's, but hey, we all ride our bikes pretty fast to.

God, I know, 50mph is so fast! I'm just burning rubber! before you say 'we', remember some bikes peak at 80mph :|

Really though, is there just something about being rich that makes young people do stuff like that, or would anyone that age do the same when given an M3? I would probably be babying it a bit myself, but I'm not rich so I guess I don't really know...

 

[jraice]

I am talking speed relative to the curves as well. You could be going 35mph and be a real crazy MF'er! Oh and my first bike barely went 53mph downhill with a tail wind . I know all about slow bikes.

I dont know...

Its an older M3, compared to a lot of the cars kids at my school drive I wouldnt say he is a rotten rich kid, just a kid with a need for speed.

Lots of cars here are closer to 6 figures then you'd think... Its pretty ridiculous.

But yeah he crashed on 9 at night, said it was a deer, not really sure what the true story is.

I once followed him in my Volvo for a short loop around some backroads here and he was going through stop signs at 65+ and drifting better then the pro's... The kids an amazing driver but also a total idiot.

 

[Corb]

Oh for crying out loud . where has the discussion even gotten anywhere near "heated"? And you've apparently missed where *street* cars have been discussed in favor of focusing on the point that I and others have pointed out the outright lap record factor. Unfortunately you've missed the fact that a comparison of overweight sedans such as an M5 to modern supersport bikes is pointless. Said bikes are infinitely more comparable to cars like a 430 or a RUF Porsche.

Sabine is a profesional racer and Ring track instructor with thousands of laps around the big track.
Shes faster in an M5 Ring taxi that probably 98% of the amateurs in tricked out cars. That was the point.
BTW the lap record BtG for the Ferrari 430 F1 is 7'55"
For reference
BtG 06' Yamaha R1 7'32.1"
BtG 07' MV Agusta 1000 F4 7'21.8"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times

 

[Cheyenne]

Nice list of Nurburgring times here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifting-gears/1178-nordschlife-lap-times.html

Based just on that, you can see that bikes are right there with any street car. Even a Caterham 500.

Do notice the difference in timed distance to the BtG times...not directly comparable.

Also I think CharlesR's idea about the race at a kart track is great...so long as it's an indoor cart track!

 

[PhoS]

Sabine is a profesional racer and Ring track instructor with thousands of laps around the big track.
Shes faster in an M5 Ring taxi that probably 98% of the amateurs in tricked out cars. That was the point.
BTW the lap record BtG for the Ferrari 430 F1 is 7'55"
For reference
BtG 06' Yamaha R1 7'32.1"
BtG 07' MV Agusta 1000 F4 7'21.8"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring_lap_times

Could possibly have anything to do with the mass amount of high speed sections? arty

 

[Dr. Evil]

So why then, do wide tires work so fucking well?? Engineering profs have been making fools out of themselves for decades with this...ever since "stupid" kids that didn't know physics started going faster with bigger tires.

Maybe you didn't get what I was saying...

The coefficient of friction between a tire and pavement is a single number that can be calculated based on about a billion different variables, including...

Contact patch area
Tire compound
Tire temperature
Pavement temperature
Pavement type
Pavement roughness
Presence of road debris
Type of road debris
Size of road debris
etc...

I'm coming to the conclusion that this thing about bikes having less grip than cars is pretty much bunk. My suspicion is that cars are (theoretically) faster than bikes because of the way that each one changes direction, and that's pretty much it. A bike has to move its centre of gravity around to turn, but a car does not. Anything else is details.

 

[Cheyenne]

Maybe you didn't get what I was saying...

The coefficient of friction between a tire and pavement is a single number that can be calculated based on about a billion different variables, including...

So why are people confused about why a wider tire gives more traction!?!?

I'm coming to the conclusion that this thing about bikes having less grip than cars is pretty much bunk. My suspicion is that cars are (theoretically) faster than bikes because of the way that each one changes direction, and that's pretty much it. A bike has to move its centre of gravity around to turn, but a car does not. Anything else is details.

The cars we are comparing are all limited, or oriented in some way that doesn't make for a good comparison. I would like to see what a GP bike could do against an F1 car...with the F1 car's wings removed, and only enough aero to kill lift. But then give the F1 car real slicks. (or did they get back to that?)

I think the wingless F1 car would still win, but by a much smaller margin. The drivers would need to recalibrate...maybe use rally drivers Honestly, I don't see why vehicles like that aren't raced...it would make much better racing...like moto racing!

That said...in this thread people keep using literbikes as comparison, but 600s have power to weight ratios that are almost the same (still better for the bike) as the kind of cars being compared... But 600 and 1000 racebikes don't have times that are that far off on most tracks do they? So I would assume that really wouldn't make a significant difference, most street cars would be toasted on most tracks by a 600.