-
There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.
Jorge Lorenzo's fancy new winglets
- Thread starter Donelop
- Start date
Im sorry. Apparently in your sweet aerodynamics education they didn't teach you the difference between a guess and solid evidence. It's sort of the difference between being educated and being smart. If you were such a skeptic why the FUCK are you spending 3 pages arguing with me for saying "They may work; they may not work; they may work in principle; they may not work under regulations?" A skeptic doesn't say "oh they totally work under regulations; you're totally wrong and ignorant." Stop arguing.
Last edited:
stangmx13
not Stan
so wheres your solid evidence of anything? ive been providing justification for ideas the whole time. every time i present a fact and suggest how it justifies my points, uve skipped it w/ your quotes. cmon, do some research and make this argument about the winglets and not your assumptions.
obviously im skeptical of your opinion
.
Last edited:
I just quoted lorenzo saying yamaha used then fifteen years ago and stopped using them, and now after this weekend of testing they don't know yet if they work. That's plenty of proof to justify a response of "oh, maybe they don't work." And then speculate on, if they don't work, why that may be. In your boasting of your aerodynamics class I think you're overlooking the importance of english lit. Educated guesses are not proof.
Last edited:
louemc
New member
so wheres your solid evidence of anything? ive been providing justification for ideas the whole time. every time i present a fact and suggest how it justifies my points, uve skipped it w/ your quotes. cmon, do some research and make this argument about the winglets and not your assumptions.
obviously im skeptical of your opinion
If You don't get a response from members that know their stuff,
it is very probable because you are a lost cause, to talk to.
afm199
Well-known member
So full of troll
stangmx13
not Stan
that quote from Jorge was after Fri, not the entire weekend. he obviously looked at the data by Sat, just like Rossi did after running them on Sat. given that Jorge didnt race on them and Rossi did, what would u conclude about the effect on their laptimes? im sure u realize that racing motorcycles is a huge multi-faceted engineering problem. change one thing, say adding downforce during braking, and u might have to change another thing. if Jorge didnt like how the winglets made the bike feel on the brakes, do u think hed sacrifice that feeling to reduce wheelies a little? at some tracks he might, at others he prob wouldnt.
u guessed/speculated as to why they are not effective and i refuted that with examples from Duc's usage. i was hoping ud have some further counterpoint to those examples.
stangmx13
not Stan
who knows their stuff?
u? uve continually shown that u fail miserably at communicating anything, so no one knows if u know anything or are just full of shit.
i know of a few other members that would prob be able to have a fruitful discussion on this. HeatXfer is the only other one that comes to mind, IIRC. who am i forgetting?
Absolutely nothing. That's the point. They're testing. The verdict is still out. Moving on...
stangmx13
not Stan
any examples or justification to support your guess that we learned absolutely nothing from Yamaha's use of the winglets?
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Location
- SF Bay Area
- Moto(s)
- anything I can throw my leg over
- Name
- Eric
- BARF perks
- AMA #2086825
Mod hat /on - So we have just had an issue with posting styles recently. This is not an effective, and more importantly, respectful debate style.
Mod hat /off - Why is Ducati using the winglets? From Stoner going forward to Gigi, all riders complained about front end feel, or lack thereof. Ducati has found them effective for their purpose. Yamaha has also been complaining about front end feel but their package is more balanced compared to those of Ducati. Thus Rossi stating that the wings worked kinda, but the tradeoff was not worth playing around with them more. (I am assuming as he is in a Championship fight, he had little interest in something that gave him nothing more than a 10th of a second that he couldn't quantify).
Ducati, as mentioned, has two different style winglets, one where tracks have slower corners (2-tiered wing) and the other for higher speed corners. Why isn't everyone doing it, because they are chasing bigger lower hanging fruit engineering issues that will move them up the results ladder.
stangmx13
not Stan
ya, like how u used Jorge's quote above to show that he hadnt learned much about the winglets by Fri evening.
stangmx13
not Stan
do u mean that the M1 riders are complaining about a systemic problem with front end feel like Duc had w/ the GP14s and older? or do u just mean that sometimes the riders need to find more feel in their setup to go faster? i havent heard of the first. but Rossi def complains about the second when hes off the pace.
HRC def has some lower hanging fruit. weve heard "too aggressive" and "uncontrollable on corner entry" all year long. they still havent fixed it. the M1 seems to more developed, which may also contribute to why they had the time to pursue winglets.
i think that Duc's electronics and massively powerful engine also play into why they are chasing winglet development. we know they have the most powerful engine on the grid, so much that HRC bumped their revlimit up 500rpm to catch up. maybe their software needs all the help they can get to deal w/ that engine.
Last edited:
Eric I didn't start that "style of debate" I was throwing it back at him.
Just no, robert. No. This is not how you argue. You're like a believer of god asking an atheist to prove god doesn't exist. Burden of proof's not on me homie. If you want to argue that the winglets on the Yamaha absolutely worked this weekend, you've gotta find that.
Just no, robert. No. This is not how you argue. You're like a believer of god asking an atheist to prove god doesn't exist. Burden of proof's not on me homie. If you want to argue that the winglets on the Yamaha absolutely worked this weekend, you've gotta find that.
stangmx13
not Stan
this is all rather hypocritical of u.
im the only one in our little argument providing actual examples of anything. im bored of u not contributing.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Location
- SF Bay Area
- Moto(s)
- anything I can throw my leg over
- Name
- Eric
- BARF perks
- AMA #2086825
Front end feel was one of the things Rossi discussed when he returned to Yamaha as he was getting beat under braking to mid-turn. They have gotten much better, but are still working on getting better in this facet because the Honda's are so good on the brakes, is what I understand.
The older Ducati's had a longer motor case, which made it very difficult for them to change geometries that were asked for from Stoner, Rossi, etc. up until Gigi and Audi. Gigi and engineers changed their cases and subsequently have more room to play with geometries to have a better handling package.
It takes 2 as my Momma used to say. Just a reminder. I hate having suspension discussions during my forum reading time if ya understand what the Rock is cookin
Just trying to make sure EVERYONE keeps it civil in General tis all. 
Carry on boys.
Keep in mind, there is one small shop in the country making winglets. Your forum topic could take food from their table You gotta read this like a five year old stomping his foot and whining. "I'm the only one around here who does anything." Between that and telling people they're wrong because you went to wind college and they didn't, it just sounds like you hold yourself in a very high regard, doesn't it?
Sir you've provided models, graphics, your education history, your amazing guesses, and telling me I'm wrong a billion times, but not quantifiable evidence to support your claim that winglets can and do currently work. You understand how wings work, but not whether the size, location, and application of winglets (as sort of after thought add ons to the overall package) make a net improvement. Last words from both Rossi and Lorenzo have been "IDK" and left off there. Doesn't matter what day those last words came in on if they're still the last words. NO word yet from Yamaha on the future of winglets. Until yamaha comes out saying exactly what the winglets do we don't know. We don't know if they apply downforce to the front wheel. We don't know if they create more drag and work just as an air brake. We don't know if it only affects the aerodynamics of the bike as much as an external human-sized nutsack dragging behind a humped back whale.
Like eric says most teams are chasing bigger issues. A winglet may only add a couple pounds of downforce to the front wheel at 200 kph or whatever speed they're fighting wheelies on. The height differences between lorenzo and rossi might make more of a difference. Engine layouts and changing geometry might make more of a difference. Lorenzo and Rossi's riding style probably makes more of a difference. Also, next year when michelin steps in the difference in tire construction might make winglets pointless. And so on. Nobody would be more stoked than me to see bikes with wings on them, where you're rewarded for carrying more speed and being smoother. My point was that maybe, just maybe if the rules on bodywork were different then winglet designs would be a bit more free and given a higher priority by teams. There is no possible way for you to know that's wrong. Your educated guess is just as good as my speculation. No point in arguing im wrong and youre right.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Location
- SF Bay Area
- Moto(s)
- anything I can throw my leg over
- Name
- Eric
- BARF perks
- AMA #2086825
but but but.....
Ducati specifically stated it was for front end grip....?
Ducati specifically stated it was for front end grip....?
IDK if its speculation on what the wings are for or ducati snnounced it, but if the wings for front wheel loading, some random interweb model suggest the single wing design loads about 20 lbs to the front wheel at 300 kph. Not nothing, but do you need 20lbs of downforce at 300? And how much does dropping the triples a mm or tweaking the bodywork add? Or a 6' rider over the front vs a 5' 6" rider?
Last edited: