MotoGP Off-Season Thread

[Spec-ECU]

But less fuel means less speed, all else being equal

I'm just going to isolate this cause it stood out to me.

Less fuel doesn't mean less speed. It just means less fuel to manage.

 

[stangmx13]

If the scare quotes mean slow things down enough so that bikes are NEVER in danger of hitting a fence, then you're right. But less fuel means less speed, all else being equal; if you add chassis and tire improvements (and more talented riders, and a tail wind, etc.), then sure, the real-world difference is not so substantial.

They could make less sticky, less durable tires, but that sort of defeats the purpose of why they signed up.

no it doesnt, thats wat im getting at.

current electronics limit power output in almost all places on track. there are plenty of quotes from riders talking about how the new 1000cc bikes wheelie well into 5th gear, which means the wheelie control is limiting power to keep the front end close to the ground. any time someone is exiting a corner, the TC and wheelie control are keeping the bike manageable and preventing tire spin. and of course, every single time the electronics limit power, they are reducing fuel consumption. rumors are that advanced electronics limit power by actually reducing injector output, not just through ignition timing and controlling throttle butterflies.

the limit for usable power is less than what the engines are producing. if the tires had more grip, wheelbases could be longer to cope w/ wheelie-ing (Yamaha did make their bike longer for 2012 for this exact reason), and their chassis were perfect for all conditions... then yes, less fuel would mean less speed. however, fuel, managing it, and HP are not the limiting factor for laptimes at this current time. though valid comparisons are almost impossible, no one will go slower in 2013 due to 1L less fuel.

Bridgestone did make less durable tires for 2012. the change in laptimes wasnt noticeable, but riders reported more severe drop-offs in tire performance after XX number of laps. no one becomes a spec-tire supplier for development reasons alone. without competition, what r u really developing...

 

[Kurosaki]

Less fuel = engineers find a way to still go faster.

 

[Tharkûn]

Watching Rolex sports cars at Texas now, can't wait to see GP out there

 

[sidewazzz]

I'm just going to isolate this cause it stood out to me.

Less fuel doesn't mean less speed. It just means less fuel to manage.

Probably meaning a great decrease in fuel instead of a slight one. Like 25% ish Im pretty possitive the 1st priority is finding away to finish the race then maximizing power. But then again right now bikes are already pushing that. Some run out of gas on the cool down lap. So really it would become a decrease even if it was just a small amount. It probably wouldn't slow the bikes down enough to see a difference.

 

[stangmx13]

Probably meaning a great decrease in fuel instead of a slight one. Like 25% ish Im pretty possitive the 1st priority is finding away to finish the race then maximizing power. But then again right now bikes are already pushing that. Some run out of gas on the cool down lap. So really it would become a decrease even if it was just a small amount. It probably wouldn't slow the bikes down enough to see a difference.

and u dont think this is by design?? running out of fuel on the cool down lap is NOT evidence that the factories are pressured by the fuel limit. if anything, its just showing that they are managing fuel perfectly.

diff tracks have diff fuel requirements because of the design of the circuits. IIRC, Motegi requires the most fuel while flowing tracks like PI (even though it has a very high avg speed) require much less. so, i wouldnt be surprised if the teams ran 20 or even 19L last year at PI. no sense in running the race heavy if u dont need it.

really, the speed trap during the race at Motegi this year is the only evidence we are going to get whether or not the decreased fuel limit has had any effect. the tanks will be full to start and if the engines are being leaned out, their drive off the final corner will be slower, resulting in a lower trap speed.

 

[sidewazzz]

and u dont think this is by design?? running out of fuel on the cool down lap is NOT evidence that the factories are pressured by the fuel limit. if anything, its just showing that they are managing fuel perfectly.

diff tracks have diff fuel requirements because of the design of the circuits. IIRC, Motegi requires the most fuel while flowing tracks like PI (even though it has a very high avg speed) require much less. so, i wouldnt be surprised if the teams ran 20 or even 19L last year at PI. no sense in running the race heavy if u dont need it.

really, the speed trap during the race at Motegi this year is the only evidence we are going to get whether or not the decreased fuel limit has had any effect. the tanks will be full to start and if the engines are being leaned out, their drive off the final corner will be slower, resulting in a lower trap speed.

I never said it wasnt by design just said bikes are running out of gas on the cool down. That's a pretty clear indication that they have a fairly exact amount of fuel they need to complete a race with a max power ratio.

I wouldnt be suprised if they had something to track fuel live and the systems made adjustments during the race. Running less fuel is a possibilty but wouldn't make much sense to me considering is a power war and the last thing you want to do is chance running out of gas. They are use to running with x amount in the tank the race its self covers pretty much the same distance. Either way there isn't much in the tank at the end.

It's fair to say if a track takes a full tank to complete the race and you were to reduce the amount of fuel allowed by say 5% It would probably slow down the bikes but it would be minimal. Eventuality they would probably figure out how to make it work

 

[firstbuell]

just a little more than a week before COTA test in TX

I just can't imagine why Ducati won't be there......

 

[stangmx13]

I never said it wasnt by design just said bikes are running out of gas on the cool down. That's a pretty clear indication that they have a fairly exact amount of fuel they need to complete a race with a max power ratio.

I wouldnt be suprised if they had something to track fuel live and the systems made adjustments during the race. Running less fuel is a possibilty but wouldn't make much sense to me considering is a power war and the last thing you want to do is chance running out of gas. They are use to running with x amount in the tank the race its self covers pretty much the same distance. Either way there isn't much in the tank at the end.

It's fair to say if a track takes a full tank to complete the race and you were to reduce the amount of fuel allowed by say 5% It would probably slow down the bikes but it would be minimal. Eventuality they would probably figure out how to make it work

not true. required power output is determined by the tires (and their use by the chassis) and total required power output is just all that over race distance. im sure the teams have a safety buffer. but, if 18L will produce all the power u need to not spin up the tire out of every corner and to manage corner entry well, 19L is a good amount for safety of not running out, and 20L is just wasteful. the HP war is limited more so by the tires and chassis than by the amount of fuel.

 

[Spec-ECU]

Yo. Where TF is kevin??

 

[firstbuell]

yeah, Schwantz might attend COTA test.....

here's 34 in '86 against Joey Dunlop [!] at Assen's F1 event

 

[stangmx13]

NGM Forward racing talking to...















... KAWASAKI for a possible GP return

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/03/06/ngm_forward_in_preliminary_talks_with_ka.html

ok, who saw that one coming. while i dont expect it to happen given all the lack of info, esp compared to Suzuki, it is nice to see interest in the series from other manufacturers.

once again, David Emmett suggests that the open software for the MSMA is still holding entires back. so, IMO, Kawasaki should just produce prototype engines for sale to teams running any chassis. cheap for Kawi since they dont need to run anything and they get representation on the grid.

 

[Foxhole Atheist]

current electronics limit power output in almost all places on track. there are plenty of quotes from riders talking about how the new 1000cc bikes wheelie well into 5th gear, which means the wheelie control is limiting power to keep the front end close to the ground.

I find that hard to believe on straights like those of Qatar, Indianapolis, etc.

the limit for usable power is less than what the engines are producing.

And yet they run out of fuel on cool-down laps. So lets say for argument's sake they have more fuel than they need: why not just run with a couple liters less to save weight?

nno one becomes a spec-tire supplier for development reasons alone. without competition, what r u really developing...

Street tires. The same way Honda is developing efficient scooters by managing fuel in MotoGP.

 

[TrueFader]

I find that hard to believe on straights like those of Qatar, Indianapolis, etc.


And yet they run out of fuel on cool-down laps. So lets say for argument's sake they have more fuel than they need: why not just run with a couple liters less to save weight?


Street tires. The same way Honda is developing efficient scooters by managing fuel in MotoGP.

They run as little fuel as possible to finish the race and keep the weight down. If they run out 1 mm after the finish line then they did it perfect. Bridgestone gp tires don't compare to street rubber. Street rider wouldn't even be able to warm them up

 

[stangmx13]

I find that hard to believe on straights like those of Qatar, Indianapolis, etc.

And yet they run out of fuel on cool-down laps. So lets say for argument's sake they have more fuel than they need: why not just run with a couple liters less to save weight?

i didnt say anything about 6th gear . i guess its better to say that wheelie-control 'cuts' power instead of 'limits' power. if the chassis is good, the rider is perfect, and there are no bumps to send the front wheel up, of course the engine wont lean out down a straight. but of course, every time one of those isnt ideal, they can save fuel.

ive already suggested teams may have run less than 21L at certain tracks. unfortunately, we'll never know for certain. ill have to go back and see if Cal dropped a hint when he ran out of fuel while fighting w/ Bautista.

 

[kelsodeez]

yeah, Schwantz might attend COTA test.....

here's 34 in '86 against Joey Dunlop [!] at Assen's F1 event

man, why did rider's have such horrible body position back in the day? it seems like from the mid 90's and downwards, you watch any gp race and every single rider is crossed up. i wonder if the shitty tires to lean over on, bad balance of the bikes or as the sport progresses, the balls of the rider's grow bigger with every generation.

 

[sidewazzz]

man, why did rider's have such horrible body position back in the day? it seems like from the mid 90's and downwards, you watch any gp race and every single rider is crossed up. i wonder if the shitty tires to lean over on, bad balance of the bikes or as the sport progresses, the balls of the rider's grow bigger with every generation.

I do remember a X- GP rider saying there is no such thing as bad riding position. It's what ever the rider is conferterble with.

 

[stangmx13]

would riders from the 80s have gone faster if they had adapted to using today's body position... maybe, maybe not. given that they won, it didnt really matter.

would riders from the 80s use more lean angle, wear tires faster, not accelerate as hard, and lose races using that body position on today's bikes & tires... probably. but thats more of a reflection on today's talent and machinery than on their talent.

 

[Zerox]

man, why did rider's have such horrible body position back in the day? it seems like from the mid 90's and downwards, you watch any gp race and every single rider is crossed up. i wonder if the shitty tires to lean over on, bad balance of the bikes or as the sport progresses, the balls of the rider's grow bigger with every generation.

The riders were awesome while the equipment was not. I remember Eddie Lawson scoffing at Jean-Philippe Ruggia, who was getting much media attention for dragging elbow and viewed as an up-and-comer. Lawson's point was that so much lean angle was for show, not control, and that you couldn't recover from a slide when leaned over that far.

Lawson finished with four 500GP (MotoGP) world titles, Ruggia never won a single race.

 

[SuperMike]

Lawson finished with four 500GP (MotoGP) world titles, Ruggia never won a single race.

But we remember Ruggia, "the sultan of scuff," nonetheless 'cause that shit was bad ass.