Paging all BARF nerds (Programming)

[uclaktsai]

Take a look here and sample an intro course (maybe something like https://www.udacity.com/course/cs101 or https://www.udacity.com/course/cs046) to see if this is something you're looking for.

+1 on the bunch of math and algorithms.

Whatever you do, make sure you have a solid foundation. Given you have good fundamentals, learning additional languages isn't too difficult.

 

[TylerW]

Programming field is over saturated, so if this is for career you will need BA/BS at least. If you just want to have "fun". See what floats your boat, and get involved in open source project. Web programming is the suck, personal opinion, OSs are fun, Compilers are fun.

This. I got my feet wet in some programming back in the late 90's and loved it - enough to land me a job slinging perl and SQL back at the turn of the millenia. it was enough time to realize that I had a deep passion for programming as an intellectual and problem solving exercise, I didn't give two shits about it doing it for a paycheck. Answering the call of wrangling data from a database, manipulating it based on a user's needs and shoving it back in was rudimentary and dreary. perhaps if I'd schooled in it longer to be at the sharper end of things I would feel different, but that's not where I landed.

I came back to programming by way of Arduino last year. since that is all personal experimentation, it's stoking the fires of creativity in code again, and being able to see that code manifest with visible and tactile results is thrilling in ways that coding to a PrintLn output can match.

 

[stangmx13]

+1 to an Arduino, a lot of fun. buy some shields or an LCD or something. i like www.sparkfun.com for all that stuff

if u need another outlet, go buy a BigNerdRanch book. their books are great for giving u that feeling of "actually programming something", ie results without an overload of theory. buy the one that works w/ your phone and go from there.

IMO, a CS degree is a nice piece of paper, but it wont make you good at a programming job. maybe itll get your foot in the door of some company that will train you properly, maybe. where you go after that is really up to you, your skills, and your motivation. just as an example, of everyone working at my small software company, only 1 has a CS or CE degree. everyone else is some sort of engineer or is company trained.

 

[Chris_BR]

Take a look here and sample an intro course (maybe something like https://www.udacity.com/course/cs101 or https://www.udacity.com/course/cs046) to see if this is something you're looking for.

I had completely forgotten about Udacity. I took an intro to programming (python) course on Coursera.org months ago and it was great. I'm actually enrolled in a CS 101 course on Coursera through Stanford so Ill be starting that next week

+1 to an Arduino, a lot of fun. buy some shields or an LCD or something. i like www.sparkfun.com for all that stuff

if u need another outlet, go buy a BigNerdRanch book. their books are great for giving u that feeling of "actually programming something", ie results without an overload of theory. buy the one that works w/ your phone and go from there.

IMO, a CS degree is a nice piece of paper, but it wont make you good at a programming job. maybe itll get your foot in the door of some company that will train you properly, maybe. where you go after that is really up to you, your skills, and your motivation. just as an example, of everyone working at my small software company, only 1 has a CS or CE degree. everyone else is some sort of engineer or is company trained.

This is very interesting. Let me know if your company needs someone to run errands or buy coffee


Thanks for all the tips BARF

 

[Asphaultnaut]

a lot of places, here included, do NOT consider web work "programming" if it involves page creation.

We've been explicitly and repeatedly told that HTML, CSS, javascript, etc are not "code" for the purposes of "writing code" for promotions.

another vote for Arduino and Raspi development. Embedded systems seem to always be needed even if the tech press wants to focus it's energy on the flashy customer "experience"..someone always has to make the device that actually does the work.

(anyone have a small benchtop lathe I can borrow for a month? Need to build a waterproof housing for a camera/ROV project that's arduino/Raspi driven)

 

[gnahc79]

Learn to code well... Anyone can sling code and have it run

Learn C to learn about data structures, pointers, and memory allocation
Learn algorithms. You may never have to write your own sort, but it's good to know how it works
Most importantly learn how to solve problems efficiently. All this nonsense with staying up all hours coding away... Ok for the first few years when you're young and have no kids. If you're still doing it 5 years later, you're not working smart and will actually produce more buggy code. Eventually you should be able to spend most of your time designing and very little time coding and debugging.

 

[Var]

I'm taking community college classes at CSM (College of San Mateo)

I took the intro to OOP(Object Oriented Programming) which they offer in Java. It's a great way to get started and I learned A LOT.
My teacher sucked so I ended up reading and teaching myself. I highly recommend starting with the intro to OOP course if your understanding of computer science is strong.

This semester I'm taking an online-only Python course. It's an 8 week long course over the summer..just started this week and it's great and since it's a more 'lightweight' language I decided it could be done over the summer.

Next 2 semesters after this are intro to C++ then data structures with C++, which I'm sure will be far more challenging.

I think the path I'm taking is a great way to learn programming, especially if you have a job and you need to take online courses. And it doesn't hurt that they're at an accredited school.

 

[Var]

Programming field is over saturated, so if this is for career you will need BA/BS at least..

The last 3 lead programmers at my work didn't have any college degrees, but the people working for them did.

 

[Chris_BR]

I'm taking community college classes at CSM (College of San Mateo)

I took the intro to OOP(Object Oriented Programming) which they offer in Java. It's a great way to get started and I learned A LOT.
My teacher sucked so I ended up reading and teaching myself. I highly recommend starting with the intro to OOP course if your understanding of computer science is strong.

This semester I'm taking an online-only Python course. It's an 8 week long course over the summer..just started this week and it's great and since it's a more 'lightweight' language I decided it could be done over the summer.

Next 2 semesters after this are intro to C++ then data structures with C++, which I'm sure will be far more challenging.

I think the path I'm taking is a great way to learn programming, especially if you have a job and you need to take online courses. And it doesn't hurt that they're at an accredited school.

I have a "job". I teach EFL online and I make my hours which is nice and should work out perfectly with going back to school.

Currently enrolled at Foothill, but I think I'll be living in SJ and SJCC is the closest so I've applied for admission.

 

[UDRider]

The last 3 lead programmers at my work didn't have any college degrees, but the people working for them did.

That's nice, most people I work with have PhDs, and MS is a minimum that will be considered.

There are always exceptions, but if someone is looking for a job NOW they either need to have lots of experience or have degree. Of course degree doesn't mean one will get the job, but it will get an interview.

 

[UDRider]

I'm taking community college classes at CSM (College of San Mateo)

I took the intro to OOP(Object Oriented Programming) which they offer in Java. It's a great way to get started and I learned A LOT.
My teacher sucked so I ended up reading and teaching myself. I highly recommend starting with the intro to OOP course if your understanding of computer science is strong.

This semester I'm taking an online-only Python course. It's an 8 week long course over the summer..just started this week and it's great and since it's a more 'lightweight' language I decided it could be done over the summer.

Next 2 semesters after this are intro to C++ then data structures with C++, which I'm sure will be far more challenging.

I think the path I'm taking is a great way to learn programming, especially if you have a job and you need to take online courses. And it doesn't hurt that they're at an accredited school.

I like how CAL teaches "beginner" courses.
61a -- Scheme where you learn all about abstraction
61b -- Java data structures
61c -- C/C++/MIPS where you learn all about low level stuff.

 

[SteelerFanatic]

The last 3 lead programmers at my work didn't have any college degrees, but the people working for them did.

This is my experience as well. On the team I manage there are 2 Masters and 3 bachelor degrees. I have zero.

I have 5 high level certifications and 15 years experience.

That's nice, most people I work with have PhDs, and MS is a minimum that will be considered.

There are always exceptions, but if someone is looking for a job NOW they either need to have lots of experience or have degree. Of course degree doesn't mean one will get the job, but it will get an interview.

There are a lot of organizations that follow this rule. Even in our own hiring we put Masters / Bachelors degree as a requirement, but don't enforce it when reviewing resumes for jobs. We are basically weeding out the people that don't have a degree and don't think they can compete with those that do.


Degree =/= ability. The biggest thing a degree proves is that you can stick with a single goal for 4+ years to achieve something. They didn't quit when faced with challenges (bad teachers, sucky class schedules, refocusing of majors, etc)

But, please, let's not equate programmers with engineers. Two different skill sets. A programmer may know one or two languages, but do they know how to make it work, work well, and work easily.

At one point we had a bunch of great programmers, then we realized we needed less headcount if we got smarter thinking people. We have a team of 4 that puts out better stuff then a team of 12. Because they work well with each other, they know how to communicate and hash out requirements faster and sometimes can see past the requirement to know exactly what the stakeholder wants - the first time. Those are all skills that have nothing to do with algorithms and data structures.

But you can start somewhere. Go to the library and pick up a book on any language and to test your self go take a cert test. They are about $100 each. Let that be your guide. In the long run, it might be cheaper than a degree and if you are passionate about it jobs will find you.

Just don't ask me who the 27th president is, cause I have no idea.

 

[KennyMonster]

I like how CAL teaches "beginner" courses.
61a -- Scheme where you learn all about abstraction

If I'm not mistaken, this is based on what MIT does which is teach out of the SICP. At least that's what they did until recently... I hear they are moving to Python.

SCIP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
MIT course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY
Scheme interpreter: http://racket-lang.org/

 

[Var]

oh yeah..MIT has free online courses as does Stanford. I took the Stanford SQL class online. It's was really difficult to keep up but got through the first half of the class. I learned enough to get by before I dropped it

 

[UDRider]

This is my experience as well. On the team I manage there are 2 Masters and 3 bachelor degrees. I have zero.

I have 5 high level certifications and 15 years experience.

Bolded for emphasis. As I said degree or bunch of experience. OP doesn't have latter, thus he needs the former.

Degree =/= ability. The biggest thing a degree proves is that you can stick with a single goal for 4+ years to achieve something. They didn't quit when faced with challenges (bad teachers, sucky class schedules, refocusing of majors, etc)

I think we are saying the same thing, basically what I was referencing to in last sentence of what you quoted.

But, please, let's not equate programmers with engineers. Two different skill sets. A programmer may know one or two languages, but do they know how to make it work, work well, and work easily.

At one point we had a bunch of great programmers, then we realized we needed less headcount if we got smarter thinking people. We have a team of 4 that puts out better stuff then a team of 12. Because they work well with each other, they know how to communicate and hash out requirements faster and sometimes can see past the requirement to know exactly what the stakeholder wants - the first time. Those are all skills that have nothing to do with algorithms and data structures.

True. But algorithms are the basic blocks upon which all else is build.

 

[UDRider]

If I'm not mistaken, this is based on what MIT does which is teach out of the SICP. At least that's what they did until recently... I hear they are moving to Python.

SCIP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
MIT course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY
Scheme interpreter: http://racket-lang.org/

Yep. I think it's a great teaching model. Languages are jut a by-product of teaching concepts.

 

[AbsolutEnduser]

The last 3 lead programmers at my work didn't have any college degrees, but the people working for them did.

That doesn't mean anything either. Basically it goes both ways. Just because they're lead developers doesn't mean not having a degree is better. Some people are 'lead', because they were there first

 

[Var]

That doesn't mean anything either. Basically it goes both ways. Just because they're lead developers doesn't mean not having a degree is better. Some people are 'lead', because they were there first

The consensus in this industry is that work experience and know-how trump degrees for the most part. If you want to make $150k+ working at Google then you might want that master's or PHD.

And no the leads weren't here first, they just know better. And luckily the head of engineering can spot talent and not just read resumes.

 

[GiorgioFurioso]

The Pi is great, but you can't beat the Arduino user base and peripherals.

Why is anyone even speaking Arduino and Pi in the same sentence? Two completely different beasts. Arduino=embedded, and Pi=really cheap Unix box to teach kids who can't afford a real computer.

OP: If you wanna build a MIDI interface, get an Arduino. If you want to learn PHP or Python, get a Pi. But you don't really need the Pi for that, because you've already got a much better computer.

You can definitely find work without a degree in the bay area, but you will need provable skills and experience to compensate.

This. OP: a person can prove basic employable skills pretty easily. Get a GitHub account ant start contributing to an open source project.

We've been explicitly and repeatedly told that HTML, CSS, javascript, etc are not "code" for the purposes of "writing code" for promotions.

It's bizarre that JavaScript is on that list...especially now that Node.js is catching on.

The last 3 lead programmers at my work didn't have any college degrees, but the people working for them did.

I've seen this more than once.

That's nice, most people I work with have PhDs, and MS is a minimum that will be considered.

There are always exceptions, but if someone is looking for a job NOW they either need to have lots of experience or have degree. Of course degree doesn't mean one will get the job, but it will get an interview.

There are many types of employment opps. Some will need a degree, others will not. Apparently, in your domain an MS is a minimum. That is not the case in the vast majority of software development jobs, at least not that I've seen.

OP: The Thiel Foundation is paying students to drop out of school and create a startup, rather than get a degree. What does that tell you about the value of a degree in this age?

The consensus in this industry is that work experience and know-how trump degrees for the most part. If you want to make $150k+ working at Google then you might want that master's or PHD.

Exactly...some shops will require a degree. But even at Google, it's not necessary. It just depends on what you know, and how bad they want that knowledge.

OP: the guys telling you to study algorithms and math are 100% correct. Luckily, it's not that hard. All you need is a basic CS Algorithms book. You might find one with examples in the language of your choice. For math, all you really need is statistics. There's other stuff to learn, but start with statistics.

As for the Bay Area being saturated, it's true there are a lot of engineers here, but there is also a massive amount of opportunity. I don't know any engineers who are unemployed, unless it's by choice.

My opinion, learn web technology and get involved in the startup world. So learn HTML 5/CSS/JavaScript and the JSON format, and along the way pick up Php, Python, or Rails. If you went after learning this full time, you would be employable rather rapidly.

 

[Chris_BR]

OP: the guys telling you to study algorithms and math are 100% correct. Luckily, it's not that hard. All you need is a basic CS Algorithms book. You might find one with examples in the language of your choice. For math, all you really need is statistics. There's other stuff to learn, but start with statistics.

As for the Bay Area being saturated, it's true there are a lot of engineers here, but there is also a massive amount of opportunity. I don't know any engineers who are unemployed, unless it's by choice.

My opinion, learn web technology and get involved in the startup world. So learn HTML 5/CSS/JavaScript and the JSON format, and along the way pick up Php, Python, or Rails. If you went after learning this full time, you would be employable rather rapidly.

This is great info.

I will be going back into CSS3/HTML 5 next week. I know a little of both but I need to review style sheets and really start experimenting with both. Any cool project suggestions?

I'm able to dive into this head-first which is what I will be doing soon.

I'd love to get experience in the field as well. I suppose I can start applying to internships within months/years once I have some tangible skills