I hear ya and agree. I look forward to hearing Keith weigh in on the topic!
Me too (sorry for the hijack)
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Questions for Keith Code - Round Two
- Thread starter budman
- Start date
Me too (sorry for the hijack)
Keith Code
New member
video critique points
Good stuff on the video critique points, here is my list:
1. Turn in points
2. Braking points
3. Exit points
4. Apex
5. Steering quickness or slowness
6 Steering corrections
7. Set up for corners in series, esses, etc.
8. Excessive moving around of the bike all the way up to slides, mostly from excess rider input
9. Target fixation in traffic
10. Gear selection which can also indicate gearing
11. Throttle control, both going on and off the gas
12. Brake and downshift coordination
There, now you can look at the videos through my eyes...
Keith
Good stuff on the video critique points, here is my list:
1. Turn in points
2. Braking points
3. Exit points
4. Apex
5. Steering quickness or slowness
6 Steering corrections
7. Set up for corners in series, esses, etc.
8. Excessive moving around of the bike all the way up to slides, mostly from excess rider input
9. Target fixation in traffic
10. Gear selection which can also indicate gearing
11. Throttle control, both going on and off the gas
12. Brake and downshift coordination
There, now you can look at the videos through my eyes...
Keith
Keith Code
New member
Training and braking
Rob,
Trailbraking and Quick Flicking are tools that are applied to different turn-in situations.
What you heard is right. The more brake you have the slower the "flick" must be for the sake of not losing traction.
However, from a training perspective, which approach requires more commitment and overcoming of our survival instincts, learning the feel of the Quick Flick or Trailing off of the brake going into a turn? Think about the forces that are created when the bike is snapped over compared to tilted over more slowly.
I don't tell anyone to get all their braking done while still upright, never have said that.
It isn't an open and shut case of trailbraking vs straight-up braking. Far from it.
One thing to keep in mind for spirited cornering is the purpose of the braking itself, getting your turn entry speed just right. Now that is a whole universe all by itself.
What are all the factors that must be kept in alignment for a rider to be able to get their turn entry speed right?
Keith
Rob,
Trailbraking and Quick Flicking are tools that are applied to different turn-in situations.
What you heard is right. The more brake you have the slower the "flick" must be for the sake of not losing traction.
However, from a training perspective, which approach requires more commitment and overcoming of our survival instincts, learning the feel of the Quick Flick or Trailing off of the brake going into a turn? Think about the forces that are created when the bike is snapped over compared to tilted over more slowly.
I don't tell anyone to get all their braking done while still upright, never have said that.
It isn't an open and shut case of trailbraking vs straight-up braking. Far from it.
One thing to keep in mind for spirited cornering is the purpose of the braking itself, getting your turn entry speed just right. Now that is a whole universe all by itself.
What are all the factors that must be kept in alignment for a rider to be able to get their turn entry speed right?
Keith
Keith Code
New member
Huh?
Yody,
Countersteering vs trailbraking??? I must have missed something, where did that come from...
Keith
Yody,
Countersteering vs trailbraking??? I must have missed something, where did that come from...
Keith
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Keith Code
New member
one can clapping
what is the sound of one can clapping?
"tries to stuff worms back into can"
what is the sound of one can clapping?
Keith, thanks for taking the time to respond and sharing your thoughts. Here are some of my conversation points:
Ok, cool, we're good on those points.
For me, I have found quick flicking much easier to do vs. trail braking, I feel like there's a lot more at stake and a lot more cycles used when trail braking. Like you said at class, you've never known anyone who crashed from quick flicking.
My bad, that must have been an ill-assumption/understanding on my part.
The only factors I can pick out of my over-thinking head is your braking point and your application of the brakes (which would include engine braking imho) because those are what govern speed. If I wanted to stretch it a little bit I could say throttle application from the corner exit before and the straight part of the track between the two corners if there is one as what you do there can change what you do in the next corner if you are inconsistent. Am I tracking or did I go off to la la land?
Ok, cool, we're good on those points.
For me, I have found quick flicking much easier to do vs. trail braking, I feel like there's a lot more at stake and a lot more cycles used when trail braking. Like you said at class, you've never known anyone who crashed from quick flicking.
My bad, that must have been an ill-assumption/understanding on my part.
The only factors I can pick out of my over-thinking head is your braking point and your application of the brakes (which would include engine braking imho) because those are what govern speed. If I wanted to stretch it a little bit I could say throttle application from the corner exit before and the straight part of the track between the two corners if there is one as what you do there can change what you do in the next corner if you are inconsistent. Am I tracking or did I go off to la la land?
I would say the quick turn is more difficult to do in terms of overcoming survival instincts. I have a more difficult time staying at speed into the turn and trusting my ability to flick the front end around, instead of taking the early apex. If my body and bike are settled, fine control of the brake seems easier.
As for entry speed factors, I'm gonna vote for entry point, how quickly you can steer, and how far can you lean in the turn.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
I found the quick turn to be a little more difficult, only because it requires (and allows for) a later turn in point. When I attempted it at my last track day, I found that dropping the bike to my knee would have put me off the inside edge of the track. However, I have had a lot of time to develop trail braking technique on the street, without having a lot of experience on the street at deep lean angles.
Self evaluation: Maybe I need to focus more on the basics (reference points, turn in points, braking points) than the advanced stuff.
rsrider
47% parasite 53% ahole
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2003
- Location
- earth; for now
- Moto(s)
- 2014 Monster 796 --2001 Triumph Sprint RS -- 2013 Vespa GTS Super--
2019 Ninja 400
- Name
- Toast
Another good column in this months MOTORCYCLIST magazine. 
it is hard to not go monkey brain when the front starts to slide from encountering loose gravel or moisture in the corner. The scenario of the "road snakes (oil used to patch cracks in the road)" is the one I encounter the most. The front gains back traction immediately after rolling over them, but the first impulse is to close the throttle. Knowing that the road is in this condition while riding makes it easier to overcome the impulse to shut the throttle when the first slide occurs. If you're concerned about falling when riding over wet road, corner debris, or greasy/slick asphalt on the roads, you should just slow down until you reach your comfort level.
it is hard to not go monkey brain when the front starts to slide from encountering loose gravel or moisture in the corner. The scenario of the "road snakes (oil used to patch cracks in the road)" is the one I encounter the most. The front gains back traction immediately after rolling over them, but the first impulse is to close the throttle. Knowing that the road is in this condition while riding makes it easier to overcome the impulse to shut the throttle when the first slide occurs. If you're concerned about falling when riding over wet road, corner debris, or greasy/slick asphalt on the roads, you should just slow down until you reach your comfort level.
Keith Code
New member
Another good column in this months MOTORCYCLIST magazine.
Thanks rsrider, I may make the grade as a journo yet.
We are at Mid Ohio right now running schools, great track, great area, I wish that we had this track in California, it's kind of like Sears but has a much better flow to it and one fast straight but the rest of the 2 1/2 miles of it is very busy/fun/challenging.
keith
bondguy399
New member
Keith,
After spending about 6 hours reading everything on this two part series of threads i have to say, its pretty freaking awesome to have someone of your caliber here to answer all these questions! So thanks in advance!
Its been somewhat addressed earlier in the first thread, ironically on a 2000 zx-12r as well. This is my first street-bike, however I've ridden dirt since i could walk. But im in love. My question is regarding seating position. Alot of what i hear is really "wishy-washy", "well its really rider preference" As a 6' 4" tall 165lb rider, i found it somewhat uncomfortable hanging off(very cramped and felt like i was over-weighting the inside peg.), until i positioned myself back MUCH further in the seat. It allows what feels like alot more room. The bars feel lighter in my hands and i can feel bumps and how the bars react to them etc. much better. My thigh feels solid against the tank for stability, and i feel very parallel to the bike. i also noticed on the two corners i get to play on on the way to work (gauging by the strips left in the morning, i know not the best measurement but for example sake) the bike is standing up much more at the same speeds. I think all good things?
HOWEVER. During braking having about 6 inches from the tank and my goods, my position on the bike feels very uncomfortable and unstable. The angle of my body seems to promote bar pressure even grabbing the tank as hard as i can with my thighs, it feels as tho there simply isn't enough leverage or something to be effective.
But it seems to me moving forward and backward in the seat enough to remedy the situation isn't a good solution, it makes for odd transitions in certain situations. Such as having to scoot back like 6 inches then off the side of the bike entering EVERY corner, lol.
So, in short. Whats the best way to resolve the transition from braking to cornering. And how far is to far back in the seat? Keep in mind the kind of bike, there is ALOT of room back there on the beast.
Thanks in advance!
Bennett
After spending about 6 hours reading everything on this two part series of threads i have to say, its pretty freaking awesome to have someone of your caliber here to answer all these questions! So thanks in advance!
Its been somewhat addressed earlier in the first thread, ironically on a 2000 zx-12r as well. This is my first street-bike, however I've ridden dirt since i could walk. But im in love. My question is regarding seating position. Alot of what i hear is really "wishy-washy", "well its really rider preference" As a 6' 4" tall 165lb rider, i found it somewhat uncomfortable hanging off(very cramped and felt like i was over-weighting the inside peg.), until i positioned myself back MUCH further in the seat. It allows what feels like alot more room. The bars feel lighter in my hands and i can feel bumps and how the bars react to them etc. much better. My thigh feels solid against the tank for stability, and i feel very parallel to the bike. i also noticed on the two corners i get to play on on the way to work (gauging by the strips left in the morning, i know not the best measurement but for example sake) the bike is standing up much more at the same speeds. I think all good things?
HOWEVER. During braking having about 6 inches from the tank and my goods, my position on the bike feels very uncomfortable and unstable. The angle of my body seems to promote bar pressure even grabbing the tank as hard as i can with my thighs, it feels as tho there simply isn't enough leverage or something to be effective.
But it seems to me moving forward and backward in the seat enough to remedy the situation isn't a good solution, it makes for odd transitions in certain situations. Such as having to scoot back like 6 inches then off the side of the bike entering EVERY corner, lol.
So, in short. Whats the best way to resolve the transition from braking to cornering. And how far is to far back in the seat? Keep in mind the kind of bike, there is ALOT of room back there on the beast.
Thanks in advance!
Bennett
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Z3n
Squid.
I'm not Mr. Code, and I'm sure he'll have more excellent advice forthcoming, but I found personally that any sort of tank pads are a huge help. Techspec, Stompgrip, etc, all have their followers...I couldn't imagine riding a bike without them because of the confidence they give on the tank, under braking, hanging off, even acceleration if you ride a bigger bike. They also relatively cheap, at about 40$ a pop, so if you don't like them, it's not the end of the world.
If you do decide to get a set, clean the tank VERY thoroughly, otherwise you may have issues with them peeling off. I also found it very helpful to use the handle of a paintbrush or a small screwdriver to force air out from between the little bumps, if you use stompgrips. You may also find that stompgrips wear the insides of your leathers a bit...not the end of the world. I personally prefer stompgrips over techspec because they stick a little better to my leathers, at the cost of some scuffing. Plus my techspecs starting peeling after a short period of time, which may have been my fault due to not cleaning the tank enough on installation.
I'm also curious as to what Mr. Code has to say on transitions...it's something that I've been working on lately as well.
If you do decide to get a set, clean the tank VERY thoroughly, otherwise you may have issues with them peeling off. I also found it very helpful to use the handle of a paintbrush or a small screwdriver to force air out from between the little bumps, if you use stompgrips. You may also find that stompgrips wear the insides of your leathers a bit...not the end of the world. I personally prefer stompgrips over techspec because they stick a little better to my leathers, at the cost of some scuffing. Plus my techspecs starting peeling after a short period of time, which may have been my fault due to not cleaning the tank enough on installation.
I'm also curious as to what Mr. Code has to say on transitions...it's something that I've been working on lately as well.
bondguy399
New member
Really good point, i don't know why its not something i really considered.
...especially considering i refuse to ride a dirt bike without them, lol.
This could help keep me in the more rear-bound position that is more comfortable for me, which should help with the drastic transitions too. Again all in theory, haha. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks Z!
abhijitz
Radiuz
Newbie Question
Keith
My friend was having an extra pass for an October trackday, but am worried since this is my first time. I have 8K miles and 30K kms of riding experience. I have done 100cc and 125cc trackdays back at my country. I still consider myself a novice and learn from fellow riders. Doing trackdays on the 600s has been my dream ever since.
i was thinking of doing your class on 09/20 or 09/21 (if available).
09-20 Streets of Willow Springs CA All Levels $390/$650
09-21 Streets of Willow Springs CA All Levels $390/$650
Is this a good class to start with. I would like to stay low, learn and listen even if i have some experience of it.
Request your expert avise.
Keith
My friend was having an extra pass for an October trackday, but am worried since this is my first time. I have 8K miles and 30K kms of riding experience. I have done 100cc and 125cc trackdays back at my country. I still consider myself a novice and learn from fellow riders. Doing trackdays on the 600s has been my dream ever since.
i was thinking of doing your class on 09/20 or 09/21 (if available).
09-20 Streets of Willow Springs CA All Levels $390/$650
09-21 Streets of Willow Springs CA All Levels $390/$650
Is this a good class to start with. I would like to stay low, learn and listen even if i have some experience of it.
Request your expert avise.
Keith Code
New member
seating position
Bennett,
You can be too far back in the seat and on some bikes. like yours that has a lot of seat, it isn't easy to judge how far back to be. 6 inches back on a sport bike would, on many sportbikes, be the back of the seat. One thing you can try is getting a block of foam padding and taping it to the seat in several different positions. Use tape that doesn't leave gooey stuff on the seat, like the blue paper tape or vinyl tape you can buy.
In the end there is no pat answer. A good deal depends on the length of your femur and where your knee contacts the tank.
Some have mentioned tank grip material and I second that, you will have a much easier time figuring out an optimum seating position once you have that stuff in place on your bike: tech Spec and Stomp Grip are the two we use.
Bike set up does have something to do with your seating position. Once you find one that works you can adjust the bike accordingly but if you are moving around on it a lot don't bother to set your ride height--until you come to a final decision on your fore and aft position.
Let me know how it works out.
Keith
Bennett,
You can be too far back in the seat and on some bikes. like yours that has a lot of seat, it isn't easy to judge how far back to be. 6 inches back on a sport bike would, on many sportbikes, be the back of the seat. One thing you can try is getting a block of foam padding and taping it to the seat in several different positions. Use tape that doesn't leave gooey stuff on the seat, like the blue paper tape or vinyl tape you can buy.
In the end there is no pat answer. A good deal depends on the length of your femur and where your knee contacts the tank.
Some have mentioned tank grip material and I second that, you will have a much easier time figuring out an optimum seating position once you have that stuff in place on your bike: tech Spec and Stomp Grip are the two we use.
Bike set up does have something to do with your seating position. Once you find one that works you can adjust the bike accordingly but if you are moving around on it a lot don't bother to set your ride height--until you come to a final decision on your fore and aft position.
Let me know how it works out.
Keith
Keith Code
New member
abhijitz,
You are asking the fox to give you advice on how to take care of chickens?
The Superbike School has four levels of training but "levels" may be the wrong word to use, it sounds like it is based on experience but that isn't how the school is structured.
Each of the levels from 1 through 3 is an exact set of specific technical skills that are grouped by how they relate to one another. Each level is a package of 5 of these technical riding skills. Level 4 is a tailored, custom program based on what specific difficulties the rider is having with integrating his riding to his own satisfaction.
After getting a briefing on a specific tech point, your assigned coach will work with you each riding session and pinpoint the areas where you are doing well with each of the drills and where you want or need to improve them.
Hope to see you at The Streets, it is one of our favorite training tracks.
Keith
bondguy399
New member
Thanks so much for the quick response! Ill definitely be trying that idea to give myself a good reference point. And picking up tank grips asap.
I have one more question for you.
How limiting is a 12r from the standpoint on learning on and track days etc. I want to race bikes down the road a ways, but im concerned learning on this-while very powerful-HEAVY machine, Weighing in at 475lbs dry, 125lbs heavier, and being a full inch longer than the average 1000, is going to limit my ability to learn. Compared to what i could on say an r1 or r6 or another more "corner-built" style motorcycle.
Or is it going to be the idea of swinging a base-ball bat with weights on the end? When i hop on a smaller bike ill be swinging like a pro
I've just noticed my roommate on his '06 r6, will carry much more speed through corners, but obviously on exit ill run him down with ease again. Oddly enough we both (on more of a street format) end up with about the same amount of lean left on our bikes.
I guess a big concern i have is is my bike going to be capable of cornering as hard as i intend to push it, or is it going to do things like tuck the front well before it should. Mechanically how limiting do you think the bike is?
I have a feeling the limiting factor is primarily the rider. But i've pushed the bike pretty hard comfortably, had the bike to max lean (at least edge of the tire), and im concerned Body Positioning etc won't make up for all of the difference.
Just curious if you feel it would be well worth the investment to go for a lighter more agile bike for learning, as ill be "held up" by the larger, heavier zx-12r.
Thanks again!
Bennett
P.S. I don't mind other member input either. And i don't mind hearing the "Trust me, you have a long way to go before you out ride your motorcycle" lol
Edit: I thought i'd throw in, while i have reached the limits of the tire, i have yet to put the knee on the floor, though i haven't specifically tried.
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