Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

[gabe0807]

pretty basic question, and maybe in the wrong place, but Keith, I'm wondering what your opinion is of taking your CSS class in the rain? Part of me says, you're taking the class to push your limits (e.g. more speed, more lean angle, etc) as well as perfect your technique (throttle control, line selection, entry speed estimation, etc). Rain is not helpful to increase your learning along at least the push your limits dimensions, but is probably irrelevant for the technique dimensions. You obviously still run the class in the rain, so I'm wondering about your thinking of the pros and cons.
thanks

In case you are interested, I wanted to share my thoughts because I took the CSS Level 1 course in I believe February of last year at Laguna Seca and it was POURING the entire day with a ferocity that we do not normally see in California. That being said, the emphasis in the Level 1 course is all about control. There is absolutely no emphasis on speed. For me personally, the rain encouraged me to keep things slowed down and focus on the drills, be smooth, and trust my tires. The two main drawbacks were: 1) it gets very cold, especially your hands, and 2) because everyone is slowed down a bit, you get slightly fewer laps per session out on the track. At any rate, in case you were interested, those were some thoughts from the rider's perspective.

 

[ukgermany]

Keith, like everyone else in this world who has stumbled across your books and work over the years I feel like entering Twist of the Wrist for the religion question on the census.

I am signed up my first CSS for the two day camp in Barcelona (level 1 and 2) on the 1st of May, really looking forward to it although it’s a real shame about Andy Ibbots health as I was looking forward to his high energy, wisdom and passion. Wishing him all the best in his recovery.

After watching your DVD over 15 times (excellent when your flying) I noticed that clutch less downshifting (its application/relevance) was about 30 seconds on the DVD however this (downshifting in general) in my personal opinion was/is the hardest and most important aspect to master out of all your chapters on the DVD. Personally, I feel the ability to effortlessly downshift is a logarithmic multiplier to the feeling of being rushed to the turn point.

Some people say clutch less downshifting is bad for the tranny but if you’re a new rider learning the blip how often to you get it just right and when you don’t how is it's effect on the tranny different to a hard clutch less downshift.
Call me crazy but I clutch less up/down pretty much everywhere, sometimes with a clutch less blip (personally only while the bike is not leaned - slight pogo) however I find it works best for me coming into low/mid corners and I don’t have the confidence to clutch less downshift at high RPMs. That’s where I would use a clutch downshift blip and my theory is that the clutch blip allows you (safely? no po-go) to keep the RPMs in the power band before the apex unlike my clutch less approach which, due to my confidence level means that I can only get on the gas with a low RPM (if heavly braking).
In short can you put the clutch less downshifting issue to bed once and for all?
Thanks

 

[Judaslefourbe]

Hi Keith, all,

Just something I wanted to share:
Last weekend was the first race with my race organization (SupermotoUSA in California). Many of the people who saw me last season came to see me and tell me how much I improved over the winter. I must admit I was very proud!
Now I am writing that here because even though I never took the CSS class, I read the books several times and watch the DVD. I also tried to exercise on my own (like in the car for instance) and take a more "scientific" approach to my driving (like in the books).
As a result, I was "only" 3-4 seconds away from the fastest guy in my category (about 55" for a lap) with a clutch that was dying (understand not gripping on accel).And it is only my second season. I am STOKED!!

Thanks for the teachings Keith!! ;-)

 

[Ghost8475]

Ok Kieth, I have a question for ya. So I have a 02 ninja 500r, and I mainly use the bike to commute. But when I do take it up to the twistie's, and go into a really deep lean, sometimes I can actually hear the bikes front end start to slip out. Its like a scrapping noise. I have to pull the bike up so I don't dump it. So with that said, I guess my question to you is, how do I fix this? Is it my suspension, or whats wrong with my riding style or the bike? I have about 1/16" - 1/32" of a chicken strip on the front tire, so I am thinking that the front end might not be slipping out, but something different. Let me know what you think Kieth, really want to fix this so I can put this worry out of my mind before I go back to the twisties. Thanks for the help,

- Ghost

 

[Keith Code]

Keith, like everyone else in this world who has stumbled across your books and work over the years I feel like entering Twist of the Wrist for the religion question on the census.

I am signed up my first CSS for the two day camp in Barcelona (level 1 and 2) on the 1st of May, really looking forward to it although it’s a real shame about Andy Ibbots health as I was looking forward to his high energy, wisdom and passion. Wishing him all the best in his recovery.

After watching your DVD over 15 times (excellent when your flying) I noticed that clutch less downshifting (its application/relevance) was about 30 seconds on the DVD however this (downshifting in general) in my personal opinion was/is the hardest and most important aspect to master out of all your chapters on the DVD. Personally, I feel the ability to effortlessly downshift is a logarithmic multiplier to the feeling of being rushed to the turn point.

Some people say clutch less downshifting is bad for the tranny but if you’re a new rider learning the blip how often to you get it just right and when you don’t how is it's effect on the tranny different to a hard clutch less downshift.
Call me crazy but I clutch less up/down pretty much everywhere, sometimes with a clutch less blip (personally only while the bike is not leaned - slight pogo) however I find it works best for me coming into low/mid corners and I don’t have the confidence to clutch less downshift at high RPMs. That’s where I would use a clutch downshift blip and my theory is that the clutch blip allows you (safely? no po-go) to keep the RPMs in the power band before the apex unlike my clutch less approach which, due to my confidence level means that I can only get on the gas with a low RPM (if heavly braking).
In short can you put the clutch less downshifting issue to bed once and for all?
Thanks

I'm really not sure what you are asking me. The DVD does show a rider braking fairly hard from about 115 mph down to about 35 and the shifts are seamless and bring the engine to proper RPM with no pogoing.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

Ok Kieth, I have a question for ya. So I have a 02 ninja 500r, and I mainly use the bike to commute. But when I do take it up to the twistie's, and go into a really deep lean, sometimes I can actually hear the bikes front end start to slip out. Its like a scrapping noise. I have to pull the bike up so I don't dump it. So with that said, I guess my question to you is, how do I fix this? Is it my suspension, or whats wrong with my riding style or the bike? I have about 1/16" - 1/32" of a chicken strip on the front tire, so I am thinking that the front end might not be slipping out, but something different. Let me know what you think Kieth, really want to fix this so I can put this worry out of my mind before I go back to the twisties. Thanks for the help,

- Ghost

Since I don't have the bike in front of me it's not possible to answer your suspension question. How about getting someone to look at the suspension and see if it is bottoming out. Once you eliminate that, then you can move on to some other possible causes without the guess work.

Take a look at your pegs and see if they are scraping. Also look at your front fender clearance to see if there's a clearance problem there or if it is loose. You might also look to see if your vrake lines are fastened where they are supposed to be, just in case they are touching the tire under braking or heavy cornering loads if they are mis-routed that can also happen. Also, you don't usually hear the front end slip, you feel it slip. which is it?

Keith

 

[ukgermany]

I'm really not sure what you are asking me. The DVD does show a rider braking fairly hard from about 115 mph down to about 35 and the shifts are seamless and bring the engine to proper RPM with no pogoing.

Keith

Twist of the Wrist II DVD - Downshifting Content

1:21:42 - 1:24:48 (3 min, 6 seconds) Downshifting overview, errors (downshifting before breaking, etc) and bliping with the clutch (RPM matching solution)

1:24:08 - 1:24:47 (39 seconds) Downshifting without using the clutch (repeated in slowmo)
In the DVD it is mentioned as an alternative however no more than a 30 second demo. I also didnt find anything in the book on the recommended useage of clutchless down shifting and or the technology.

One of the main takeaways I got from your book is to distinguish between bad advice, friendly advice and useful tips and that understanding the technology is more valuable than relying on any of these. Thats why i'm looking to understand the technology of clutchless downshifting and I find it impossble to find reliable definitive information on this topic appart from some people fears of destoying the tranny. Fear ultimatly clouds these people's ability to perform an objective analysis.

Sorry if I did not commuicate clearly, I am greatful for your response and thank you for all that you do.

 

[Alexey]

One of the main takeaways I got from your book is to distinguish between bad advice, friendly advice and useful tips and that understanding the technology is more valuable than relying on any of these. Thats why i'm looking to understand the technology of clutchless downshifting and I find it impossble to find reliable definitive information on this topic appart from some people fears of destoying the tranny. Fear ultimatly clouds these people's ability to perform an objective analysis.

Agreed. A little while back, I did a poll that attempted to get some real-world data about different styles of shifting. It would be nice to conduct more in-depth polls, which would account for different kinds of riding: track vs street; different types of technology: slipper clutch vs no slipper clutch, torque output categories; miles traveled.

 

[Keith Code]

Twist of the Wrist II DVD - Downshifting Content

1:21:42 - 1:24:48 (3 min, 6 seconds) Downshifting overview, errors (downshifting before breaking, etc) and bliping with the clutch (RPM matching solution)

1:24:08 - 1:24:47 (39 seconds) Downshifting without using the clutch (repeated in slowmo)
In the DVD it is mentioned as an alternative however no more than a 30 second demo. I also didnt find anything in the book on the recommended useage of clutchless down shifting and or the technology.

One of the main takeaways I got from your book is to distinguish between bad advice, friendly advice and useful tips and that understanding the technology is more valuable than relying on any of these. Thats why i'm looking to understand the technology of clutchless downshifting and I find it impossble to find reliable definitive information on this topic appart from some people fears of destoying the tranny. Fear ultimatly clouds these people's ability to perform an objective analysis.

Sorry if I did not commuicate clearly, I am greatful for your response and thank you for all that you do.

The purpose of pulling in the clutch is to take the load off of the engagement dogs in the transmission so the next gear may be selected. On a clutchless upshift or downshift the throttle blip achieves the exact same result, it momentarily cuts the load going from the engine through the primary gears to the transmission.

Here is a pretty good site that shows how transmissions work: http://www.gadgetjq.com/transmission.htm

Quick shifter do the same thing. By interrupting the power delivery for a couple of hundredths of a second, the load is off the engagement dogs and you can make the gear change.

On a downshift, the throttle is blipped, the load reduced and there is a moment when there are no dogs engaging any gear which allows the engine to free rev and match RPM with the new (lower) gear selected.

Timing the throttle blip and gear change lever motion is important. If it is mistimed there will be some load on the dogs and they can become rounded off and could start to slip out of engagement. If timed correctly the transmission is not harmed because there is no load on it.

The other potential negative is that the rider is brutal with his gear change lever and bends the shift forks. It's not necessary to use any more force at the lever than a normal shift.

How's that?

 

[ukgermany]

The purpose of pulling in the clutch is to take the load off of the engagement dogs in the transmission so the next gear may be selected. On a clutchless upshift or downshift the throttle blip achieves the exact same result, it momentarily cuts the load going from the engine through the primary gears to the transmission.

Here is a pretty good site that shows how transmissions work: http://www.gadgetjq.com/transmission.htm

Quick shifter do the same thing. By interrupting the power delivery for a couple of hundredths of a second, the load is off the engagement dogs and you can make the gear change.

On a downshift, the throttle is blipped, the load reduced and there is a moment when there are no dogs engaging any gear which allows the engine to free rev and match RPM with the new (lower) gear selected.

Timing the throttle blip and gear change lever motion is important. If it is mistimed there will be some load on the dogs and they can become rounded off and could start to slip out of engagement. If timed correctly the transmission is not harmed because there is no load on it.

The other potential negative is that the rider is brutal with his gear change lever and bends the shift forks. It's not necessary to use any more force at the lever than a normal shift.

How's that?

That's great and I am greatful for your reply.

From what you are saying I take away that there is not excess effect on ware whether one uses a clutch or not when shifting if timed correctly.

That said there must be a difference in the applicability of the two techniques. From my primitive understanding clutchless downshifting introduces a momentory increase in directional force from the rear as a result of the blip and a clutchless blip does not. I imagine that using the clutch to downshift results in a fractional reduction of stability from the rear as the chain is slacked. Hence no downshifting in a corner as it unsettles the stability of the bike probably similar to a light chop off of the throttle.

If this is true then, whats facinating to me at least, is that the two approches then must effect the bike's stability in different ways.

I'm not saying i would do this but this could mean for example if you had to that changing gear mid corner could be safer without using the clutch because the blip would be like getting on the gas harder then usual at the apex resulting in an 'pickup techique'.

However using the clutch to downshift as you meet the apex would result in a momentory reduction in throttle similar to a chop off and a loss of traction.

Once again it cannot be expressed in words how greatful I am for your time to answer my newbie question

 

[abhijitz]

Keith - Contrary to the solution you provided, i tried the downshift later after braking during my recent trackday at THill.

I did notice improvement in corner speed (specifically entry). However, overall i did not improve in my timings.

90% of the cases while trying above, i wasnt smooth (as i would expect). Example : T1 to T2, T9 to T10, T10 to T11 ...

one lap i would try my earlier method, downshift and then brake .. yes am coasting & getting overtaken by faster riders (but i am smooth). I can catch some of the riders in corner speed even doing this method.

next lap i try brake and downshift (as shown in video), brake gradual, harder, downshift, gas, turn .... In the transition between "harder" and "downshift" rolling the finger over the brake lever, clutch in, throttle revving up, downshift & clutch out ... the bike is not stable. (I hope i can explain better). Means, in the process of "finger rolling" & in an attempt to rev up the throttle, the amount of braking is variating. Overall, i am not comfortable and end up adjusting speed. What am i doing wrong?

you are absolutely right ! little steps works, as i approach further, feel am rushed & get tensed.



i do not have a slipper clutch and i have learnt to match and downshift the way you are describing [i rarely experience hiccups now]. I will try what you are asking me to, Thank You !



i will definitely source a copy.



thats what am frustrated about. i am hoping to get this fixed.

 

[Keith Code]

Keith - Contrary to the solution you provided, i tried the downshift later after braking during my recent trackday at THill.

I did notice improvement in corner speed (specifically entry). However, overall i did not improve in my timings.

90% of the cases while trying above, i wasnt smooth (as i would expect). Example : T1 to T2, T9 to T10, T10 to T11 ...

one lap i would try my earlier method, downshift and then brake .. yes am coasting & getting overtaken by faster riders (but i am smooth). I can catch some of the riders in corner speed even doing this method.

next lap i try brake and downshift (as shown in video), brake gradual, harder, downshift, gas, turn .... In the transition between "harder" and "downshift" rolling the finger over the brake lever, clutch in, throttle revving up, downshift & clutch out ... the bike is not stable. (I hope i can explain better). Means, in the process of "finger rolling" & in an attempt to rev up the throttle, the amount of braking is variating. Overall, i am not comfortable and end up adjusting speed. What am i doing wrong?

You aren't doing anything "wrong" you just haven't done it right yet. If your finger pressure on the brake lever is varying then that is what you have to sort out. It isn't anything but coordinating your throttle blip while maintaining a consistent lever pressure.

It takes some practice to get it right. Some pick it up quickly, some it takes practice. You'll get it.

Keith

 

[Lazerus]

Yeah, it's kinda like juggling. The explanation is simple enough, but the act requires some practice and coordination.

 

[Judaslefourbe]

That's why I'm glad to do supermoto: no blipping

 

[Alexey]

Yeah, it's kinda like juggling. The explanation is simple enough, but the act requires some practice and coordination.

What I also found critical (especially for people like me with short-ish fingers) is proper hand position on the grip and good lever adjustment. What's good is up to you to figure out, but it should enable to you not vary brake pressure as you open and close the throttle in your typical braking body position. You can play with that in the pits or at home until it feels best and then mark all the positions of the ergos that you've found to your liking: brake lever angle, lever distance from grip, position of the master cylinder and clutch along the bar, rotation of the bars around the fork legs. That way, next time you work on your bike, you won't have to look for those adjustments again -- just pop everything back so your sharpie markings align.

 

[abhijitz]

Thank You, will try (I have short fingers too) ...

What I also found critical (especially for people like me with short-ish fingers) is proper hand position on the grip and good lever adjustment. What's good is up to you to figure out, but it should enable to you not vary brake pressure as you open and close the throttle in your typical braking body position. You can play with that in the pits or at home until it feels best and then mark all the positions of the ergos that you've found to your liking: brake lever angle, lever distance from grip, position of the master cylinder and clutch along the bar, rotation of the bars around the fork legs. That way, next time you work on your bike, you won't have to look for those adjustments again -- just pop everything back so your sharpie markings align.

 

[Keith Code]

What I also found critical (especially for people like me with short-ish fingers) is proper hand position on the grip and good lever adjustment. What's good is up to you to figure out, but it should enable to you not vary brake pressure as you open and close the throttle in your typical braking body position. You can play with that in the pits or at home until it feels best and then mark all the positions of the ergos that you've found to your liking: brake lever angle, lever distance from grip, position of the master cylinder and clutch along the bar, rotation of the bars around the fork legs. That way, next time you work on your bike, you won't have to look for those adjustments again -- just pop everything back so your sharpie markings align.

Excellent points. Setting the bike up for your body style and reach can help a lot. Provided the lever isn't completely out of reach I've seen riders compensate and still be able to make it work out fine. 9 to 12 year old kids for example can use grownup levers and still do fine. There are lots of aftermarket levers available that can get you something really comfortable and many have lifetime warranties, even for crashing.

Gloves too can have an effect. Too tight or too loose will be a problem. As has been pointed out, lever rotation also has a role. Tilted too far up or down and it puts your wrist in an awkward position and makes it difficult to blip and brake with the right hand. Throttle grip compound can be a factor, grippy is best.

In addition, the most often used fingers for braking while using these shifting techniques are the index and middle fingers.

Grasping the twist grip with the thumb, ring and little fingers seems to be the most universal solution to that.

Keith

 

[Z3n]

That's why I'm glad to do supermoto: no blipping

I'm in this camp. I spent 6 years, 200k+ of street riding, couple of years of regular trackdays, a number of riding schools, and a season of racing on an SV650 to try and figure out blipping. I can do it smoothly at street speeds, but at track speeds with bigger blips and much, much more aggressive braking, I found I was incapable of consistently maximizing front brake application while simultaneously blipping the throttle, which made setting my entry speed basically impossible because I was completely inconsistent on the brakes each time.

Now I clutch in, make my downshifts, and then slip the clutch. Even without a slipper clutch my comfort and speed on entry has increased dramatically. I tried going back to blipping after riding supermoto for awhile and it really highlighted how I'd never been able to blip properly. The back end might get a little sideways (or a lot sideways, depending on the bike and corner), but that's something that occurs consistently, so it's easy to adjust for. What I can't adjust for is the inconsistency that I end up with when I try and blip. At my last race weekend on my GSX-R, I was suddenly passing people on the brakes regularly rather than getting passed on the brakes because I had to roll off so early to compensate for the inconsistent braking while trying to blip.

 

[Judaslefourbe]

That is also the reason why I stopped blipping the throttle. That's one less dollar I have to spend on my $10 bill worth of attention that is already getting stretched...

 

[Keith Code]

I understand how you could arrive at a decision like that based on what was said about the difficulties. We are all agreed on how it's done but not on whether or not it is a benefit.

Here are some of the pros and cons.

1. Even slightly uncoordinated braking/downshifting simultaneously takes some attention to do and that in itself can be an added distraction.
2. It takes more precision coordination to do it properly.
3. Once the technique is mastered and becomes natural it is very quick, either with or without the clutch being used.
4. The bike fit can play a major roll in how easy it is.
5. There is less wear on the clutch (slipper or not) chain and sprockets when it is done quickly and simultaneously.
6. Braking and downshifting options, as to where they can be done, are increased. Such as a situation where you have little time and space to do the two actions separately.
7. The clutch release doesn't have to be fed in gradually.
8. Changing one gear at a time reduces the possibility of finding a neutral from a missed shift and becoming confused about what gear you are in on the downshift or which direction you need to go with the lever to correct the false neutral.

There may very well be more, those are the ones that come to mind immediately.

To avoid the problems, some riders downshift first and brake later but my experience tells me that is abusing the bike and the potential for overrevving is greater.

Keith