Rain racing?

[rob linders]

I do want to thank Holeshot, Dahve, Burning1 and other members that take the time to come on here and explain what happens at the board meetings. I can't commit the time and money to come up to the Bay Area for the meetings, but please don't think it is because I don't care or am just being lazy. If I could attend via skype, or watch from a webinar, or something similar, I would attend.

 

[machete]

Heed this warning, racing in the rain will be the worst choice made by the AFM, there will be more crashing!!

Watch any pro level race in the rain with top level riders and equipment and you will see double the crashing and you think a bunch of club racers not on wets are going to top those numbers, NOT!!

if racing in the rain frightens you, then don't do it. don't ruin it for those of us that will do it though.

And that could turn out to be a big problem for AFM income on a race weekend, if enough riders do not race in the rain.

but the ones that would race in the rain, would be pumping money into the club. if no one raced in the rain, then NO MONEY is put into the club, yes? so even if half the grid races, that's half the grid entries, no?
how much did we lose berto?

We discussed rain racing in this month's board meeting. There are a number of reasons we don't do it, but one of the directors stated that one of the biggest issues is the reliability of communications at the track in wet weather.

If you want to help shape the AFM, attending the board meetings is one of the best ways to do so. It's a huge opportunity for learning why the club operates the way it does, and a great forum to contribute.

What are the reasons, for those of us that weren't there?

oh, and the bolded part, how do they know this? since we've never been allowed to race in the rain?

 

[rob linders]

+1 machete on the radio thing. Radios seem to work fine for other race organizations. They also work for fire and police departments all across the country in all types of weather. They even worked in the rain at the mini organization that we started racing with. IMO it's just noise on the wire, but not the real issue.

The tire excuse was given to me by someone from AFM when I originally asked about it at the Buttonwillow round last year. I spoke with two vendors that don't have a problem bringing rains when the same vendor participates in S. Cal club races or at WERA rounds.

 

[Oneup]

It's just the process to get from here to there and it's not as easy as saying "let's race in the rain". I anticipate 2013 at the earliest, but that's far from guaranteed.

I hope that process includes a member survey or popular vote from the membership at some time. A lot of people here say they want to race in the rain but I would guess the majority of the membership does not. I care about points so I'll race if we are told to grid up, but I have no interest in it and would prefer our rain policy stay the way it is.

 

[afm199]

And that could turn out to be a big problem for AFM income on a race weekend, if enough riders do not race in the rain.

I've had to clear bikes out of crash zones in the mud. It is hard, and sometimes impossible. The mud gets everywhere and jams the front wheel by packing mud between wheel and fender. It's REALLY hard to move one with two people. I wonder how anxious the corner workers are going to be to work a wet rainy track, spending a day standing in the rain, AND clearing bikes out of the mud. I expect that the board can vote any way they want, but finding corner workers who will stand in the rain all day and move bikes may not be as easy as voting.

Try it sometime and get back to me.

It's a temptation, (let's rain race and not "waste" a race day.")

I hope this is considered long and hard. Most of your AFM racers don't have rain experience, and this just adds more cost and complexity.

 

[KazMan]

The communications issues at Thill are that the com system is duplex meaning people can hear and talk at the same time. This system when piped apparently is not rain resistant and will cut out. Thill is currently not interested (my interpretation) in putting out the money to repair this issue.

So the reason this is a safety concern is that if one person say has a mechanical and coasts off the track but let's just say for this, on the outer part of turn 2 and is a hazard and within seconds, there are people who went down at the crest of 5.

The duplex communication will allow both turnworkers to report. However, with a radio system, if turn 2's mic is keyed, no one will hear the person in turn 5. Now maybe turn 5 assumes their broadcast was heard and then goes to take care of flags and retrieval, their is a possibility that no-one will know and the situation could get worse.

Rob, until something allows us to have electronic meetings, if you ever wanted to submit a question or a proposal, there are those on the Board that would love to hear your input. There are even some not on the Board who could take your input to the Board meeting. However, for you and anyone else, the input should be drafted in such a way that the person submitting could reasonably talk about it and explain/defend it to some extent. To write something like "I think AFM should sell rain tires" period. As you know, that is not very well thought out and really not submittable because we know the AFM does not sell the tires.

There are a lot of suggestions out there from many, but it does take time to gather information and present. And for those that do submit, be ready for a lot of questions and comments up to and including personal attack. But if you believe in what you are proposing and are willing to listen, perhaps you could find something beneficial to the club and make us better. It could be a very small thing but every little bit helps or could be the impetus for a more far reaching change that you didn't perhaps see.

And although I am made of sugar, I would risk melting and race in the rain

And I just saw Ernie's post, there is a lot of "complexity" from the workers part that many of us take for granted. I think every racer should volunteer for corner working sometime. If you race on Sunday, see if you can do the Saturday events. A whole different perspective of what is involved in a race day. Us racers have it the easiest by far!

 

[LongGoneJohn]

I'm also not against the idea of my first entry, no matter what (rain or dry), being forfeited. Why? The club needs to be solvent and while I really like the idea that if I don't race I don't pay, I like the idea of the AFM going out of business because of a couple rain-days -- even if they allow racing in it -- even less. Make the first entry a no-matter-what fee, that way in the event that someone doesn't show, or the rain scares people away, or some other catastrophey that we've yet to see, the AFM stays solvent.

It's not about being afraid of the rain, I've ridden in it a million times and done trackdays in it. It's that I don't have fun running around getting soaking wet and cold in the rain, so I won't be doing it. I race for fun, nothing else. If it's not fun, I don't do it... I know I'm not alone in this....

 

[CockyRooster]

If AFM races in the rain then more folks would practice trackdays in the rain eventually acquiring the experience needed. If its officially called a rain race then double points should be given to encourage participation and keeping it upright. Maybe a fee increase on rain races to buy off the turn workers with extra cups of coffee.

2011 was a fluke, and I think that we should wait and see what the future brings before shooting from the hip, but basic processes could be started in the meantime so AFM is prepared to move forward if needed.

 

[rob linders]

Eric, I have corner worked before and think racers make good corner workers, as we have experience on the track too. I raced at a club where everyone had to volunteer to corner work one weekend to keep costs down.

Regarding the rain policy I got some information to the proper folks, I believe, earlier in the year when it was discussed and presented. However, being new to AFM, I thought it would be acted on in an amount of time that seems reasonable to me. One or two months. However, it appears AFM works differently than I'm used to and these things take years.

Does Thunderhill race cars in the rain, I don't know? If so, how are the radio issues handled? As I mentioned before, let's try it at Buttonwillow and see how it goes. I'm presuming Buttonwillow doesn't have the same radio issues.

I ask and make this statement purely based on finances. I maybe mistaken, but thought AFM had to pay for all expenses rain or shine, if that assumption is correct, then for the well being of the club I believe we should allow rain racing. It's not like I have this crazy rain racing idea and we are the first club to try it. No, I believe we are the only club that doesn't race in the rain.

I see the approximate expenses rain or shine like this for 2 days:

30,000 Track Rental Thunderhill 2days number came from Thill website
4,000 Ambulance full guess on my part
4,000 Corner workers guess
4,000 Other workers guess
2,000 Race Director flight/fees guess

So I'm guessing AFM puts out $44,000 if we hit the track or not. So to me it seems how can we not.

Then you get into the finances of the tire vendors. They just spent a boatload of money to get product and employees to the track and there are no sales. At least let them sell some rains and salvage the weekend.

Then the high cost to the racer family that shows up. Even if you don't use my skewed example of over $400 in fuel round trip, there are the opportunity costs of using that vacation time to spend with the non-racing side of my family.

I feel pretty stupid going back home to my daughter and wife and explaining that Tyler didn't even get to race. That happened 3 times last year, two with AFM, because of rain and once at Miller when the main bike blew and I couldn't get the backup bike working properly.

 

[LongGoneJohn]

I feel pretty stupid going back home to my daughter and wife and explaining that Tyler didn't even get to race. That happened 3 times last year, two with AFM, because of rain and once at Miller when the main bike blew and I couldn't get the backup bike working properly.

That's on you bud. I know the AFM rain policy in 2011, and when I saw that there was going to be rain at Thunderhill... guess what? I didn't go. No spending $400 in fuel, no wasting of time and no "feeling stupid to my wife and daughter."

No offense, I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but that's 100% your fault.

I see, and I'm sure the AFM Board does too, your point on the cost aspect. I mean, they're out the money either way so why not make some of it back right? I personally disagree with this type of thinking, but I understand it.

 

[Gary J]

but the ones that would race in the rain, would be pumping money into the club. if no one raced in the rain, then NO MONEY is put into the club, yes? so even if half the grid races, that's half the grid entries, no? how much did we lose berto?

^ Exactly!

Looking at things purely from the AFM as a financial entity perspective, that’s exactly the rationale for considering changing policy to holding races (and/or practice) on a weekend where it rains ...... for those that are willing and interested in participating.

IF the AFM is required to pay expenses for track rental for the 2 days, and fees for ambulance, insurance, etc for those two days, whether a single bike takes to the track - or the track sits idle all weekend - then running practice/races is very hard to argue against from a purely fiscal perspective for the AFM’s solvency into the future.

IF those expenses are due/payable regardless of track use (or not), and even if only 30% of the entered racers elected to participate in practice and/or races at an otherwise cancelled weekend (due to rain), that would still be at least $10,000 less lost revenue for the AFM than with the current “no bikes on track” policy.

So the $6M question (that I fear, based on past events, no one locally on the AFM Board may have ready visibility, or immediate knowledge to answer?

- Did the AFM have to pay normal track rental fees, and other associated fees, for both days - on the two “rain-out” weekends last year? (due to the current no-run policy?

- If so, how what were the total out-of-pocket expenses that the AFM incurred at each of those weekends? (in not running any practice or races, and hence having $0 in incoming dollars)

Interesting to hear feedback on this; looking at things purely from the dollars-and-cents side.

(P.S. I won't get into the "is racing in the rain safe/possible" side of a discussion - as based on past events - my vision on that aspect is pretty well established).

 

[afm199]

IIRC ambulance fees are less, and insurance but someone from the board?

 

[rob linders]

That's on you bud. I know the AFM rain policy in 2011, and when I saw that there was going to be rain at Thunderhill... guess what? I didn't go. No spending $400 in fuel, no wasting of time and no "feeling stupid to my wife and daughter."

No offense, I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but that's 100% your fault.

I see, and I'm sure the AFM Board does too, your point on the cost aspect. I mean, they're out the money either way so why not make some of it back right? I personally disagree with this type of thinking, but I understand it.

I don't disagree that it is my fault, just trying to get the club to see the other costs for long distance travelers. I would probably commit to the entire AFM season if they committed to calling a rain race by Thursday night at 5pm if there is a chance for rain. Then I would cancel the vacation day and go to work on Friday and not waste my time and money traveling because the AFM has a "touchy feely" maybe we will run maybe not policy. If AFM doesn't want to rain race, that is perfectly fine with me and I will quit making posts, just make the decision before your out of townees start the long drive up. Many of us will do the Friday as well, because we are trying to lower our high cost per lap when taking into account the fuel or hotel costs.

 

[afm199]

good point.

 

[Burning1]

That's on you bud. I know the AFM rain policy in 2011, and when I saw that there was going to be rain at Thunderhill... guess what? I didn't go. No spending $400 in fuel, no wasting of time and no "feeling stupid to my wife and daughter."

No offense, I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but that's 100% your fault.

I kind of disagree with this statement. For a guy like me who's racing for fun and doesn't really have a shot at a championship, it's fine to skip a weekend if it looks like it might rain. But if you're in it for the championship, missing a weekend is a big risk to be taking.

This goes double for guys who have real sponsors backing them. Sponsors are a double edged sword - they help cover your costs, but the money also comes with expectations that you put forth a best effort each weekend. When someone's paying you to do this, it starts to get difficult to say 'I don't want to risk it' or 'I don't feel like going' or 'I want to take a Vacation.'

That's my impression at least. My only sponsor is me, so...

One factoid we picked up at the board meeting is that we usually only see one total rain out every 10 years or so. Usually we get at least a few races in.

 

[Burning1]

BTW... I crashed in the mud outside T3 at T-Hill, and I can confirm that the mud makes removing a bike from an impact zone 5X worse.

Not saying that it's impossible to race in the rain... I'd be keenly interested in seeing how other clubs do it, and I'd be interested in getting a list of obstacles to overcome. But I suspect that there are a large number of concerns we need to deal with. I see a lot of situations where we get into a debate on BARF that focuses on one aspect of an issue (such as, the vendors can't bring enough rain tires) without realizing that the problem is way more complex than our understanding of it.

 

[eeeeek]

What about Infineon? Even the AMA won't run Infineon in the rain...

 

[Burning1]

Yes, that's correct. If AFM ran in the rain, it would be at T-Hill and Buttonwillow. We wouldn't run sears.

 

[LongGoneJohn]

So that begs the question.

How many times has a race been rained out at Thunderhill, in the last 5 years?

 

[LongGoneJohn]

I kind of disagree with this statement. For a guy like me who's racing for fun and doesn't really have a shot at a championship, it's fine to skip a weekend if it looks like it might rain. But if you're in it for the championship, missing a weekend is a big risk to be taking.

This goes double for guys who have real sponsors backing them. Sponsors are a double edged sword - they help cover your costs, but the money also comes with expectations that you put forth a best effort each weekend. When someone's paying you to do this, it starts to get difficult to say 'I don't want to risk it' or 'I don't feel like going' or 'I want to take a Vacation.'

That's my impression at least. My only sponsor is me, so...

One factoid we picked up at the board meeting is that we usually only see one total rain out every 10 years or so. Usually we get at least a few races in.

True. But again, that all comes down to the person who's racing. They chose to race at the level you're speaking of. No one made them, you know? Racing at that level, even in club racing, they have to take into account a weekend that may cost them some money for nothing -- and they do. Guys who are running 15k+/yr budgets don't care about missing a friday for no reason, or spending an extra $400 to get rained out. Or they shouldn't.

My only concern with rain stuff is keeping the club solvent. No club means I don't get to race, or anyone else for that matter, and that would suck -- even if we magically never got another rainy day in our lifetime. That's why I think the first entry should be non-refundable, no matter what. If it rains, at least the club cut its costs a little bit.