SaferMoto vests on the news!

[Enchanter]

Let me ask you a simple question, Tim... do you think, overall/in most instances, a rider will have increased protection in a crash with the vest? And that's a yes/no type answer!

I've spent damn near 20 years working in the medical device industry testing all manner of devices and have developed some opinions due to my experiences. I've seen my fair share of break-through devices that seemed like they were going to be the end-all, be-all for 'X' problem. They passed testing on the bench, in animals, and in cadavers. Then when actually used on living humans, weird shit happens.

If that vest lowers the risk of a neck injury but raises the risk somewhere else, I want to know before I wear one. I said it once already, when you strengthen one area, you raise the stresses imparted to the other areas.

If buying/wearing one of these types of devices gives the owner peace of mind, then there is a lot to be said for that. Damn near all of the "it saved my life", "I know I'd be dead without it" testimonies are purely conjecture.

These types of devices are a great idea, but so far they aren't tested in a manner that proves anything.

There are more than a racers that have experienced career ending, life changing spinal injuries on the track (and at least on on the street). A quick Google search seems to show that these injuries were much lower than the neck. It makes me wonder why many people hanging their hat on the 'neck stabilization'?

 

[Enchanter]

And bike specs like engine type, torque, HP, wheel base, Weight, seat height.
Is a different type of measurement, all-to-gether, not a comparison of importance.

Thank you for reaffirming my point. Bike stats aren't important for 99% of the buyers, but they sure spend a whole lot of time 'analyzing' the differences to find what bike is better for their ride to Starbucks, and damn near no time on the testing of safety gear.

For protective gear, lab testing numbers are needed and have a value....
But I don't put the value on them as actual crash results..Real people doing real things, in the real world.

You prefer opinion over quantifiable results.

 

[louemc]

You prefer opinion over quantifiable results.

It's obvious that You can't help it... How your brain, re-shapes what you read, and sends it out in a different form.

The companies like Alpine Stars get their data to make more effective protective gear, by covering real people with sensors that record what actually happens to a body, in a crash.

Just because Neck stabilization is a point of discussion, that isn't "hanging your hat on it". There is also a great deal of effort going into chest protection, because of impacts to the chest, that stop hearts.

You might find these things out, as you get older, and get exposed to more information.

 

[Enchanter]

It's obvious that You can't help it... How your brain, re-shapes what you read, and sends it out in a different form.

The companies like Alpine Stars get their data to make more effective protective gear, by covering real people with sensors that record what actually happens to a body, in a crash.

Just because Neck stabilization is a point of discussion, that isn't "hanging your hat on it". There is also a great deal of effort going into chest protection, because of impacts to the chest, that stop hearts.

You might find these things out, as you get older, and get exposed to more information.

I'm growing exceedingly tired your inability to communicate without insults.

Do you think that you'd continue speaking your insults if we were having a conversation face to face?

Why do you feel it is important to communicate in this manner?

 

[louemc]

^^^ I Know, I know, you prefer to just having it go one way. You rearrange a post to something the original post never said...And add a to that, that originally wasn't said...And then get miffed when the original poster points out what you did

And..I wasn't making your point, on the bike specs issue....I was pointing out that it had nothing to do with protective gear, as an issue.

There are all kinds of riders, and very few, percentage wise, put any study and real world evaluation into Motorcycle design, or related subjects.

They put all their efforts into what gets taught in school for the field they choose to work in...and the rest of normal society life.

 

[Enchanter]

 

[scotinexcile]

Would you 2 mind taking your pissing match elsewhere so we can get on with the "anecdotal" evidence?

 

[scotinexcile]

I do want to hear about this stuff, I just want more than what is in that article, since it reads like many of the posts in this thread.

It is rather interesting that many riders will compare data of motorcycles (weight, bhp/torque, 1/4mi time, braking distance, etc) before purchasing, but don't look for similar performance data for the gear they wear.

Why do you think the article "reads like many of the posts in this thread"?

Shit, Maybe people are having a similar experience with the vest and they are expressing that experience in a similar way?

I would disagree, as is my right ,(as it is your right) that most riders compare data on bikes before buying. The majority of riders go with their "gut" instinct on bikes otherwise Ducati would be out of business I love the MV Agusts F3 but I should really buy a new R6 if I look at all the data.

People will go with what they like and what they believe, if you get a chance logon or take a look at the ADVRider site and see the hundreds of comments on the vests there.

I will send a email to the factory again and see if they have submitted products for any other testing and if they have get the results to you as soon as I can

 

[Enchanter]

Why do you think the article "reads like many of the posts in this thread"?

Shit, Maybe people are having a similar experience with the vest and they are expressing that experience in a similar way?

Because the writer saw a vest, thinks it's cool, and bought it, and is telling people it is a good idea.

What experience did the writer have with the vest? Am I missing something? The writer is sharing that they saw a product that they think is worth buying. That is it. They don't have any experience beyond that. They haven't crashed in the vest.

I would disagree, as is my right ,(as it is your right) that most riders compare data on bikes before buying. The majority of riders go with their "gut" instinct on bikes otherwise Ducati would be out of business I love the MV Agusts F3 but I should really buy a new R6 if I look at all the data.

I'm not sure if we agree or disagree. I think that many riders compare quantifiable numbers before purchasing a motorcycle (exhaust systems too) before buying because they want the best (even though the average rider wouldn't be able to tell the difference in performance between an R1 or GSXR1k), but other than a DOT helmet, they do not do the same thing with riding gear.

People will go with what they like and what they believe, if you get a chance logon or take a look at the ADVRider site and see the hundreds of comments on the vests there.

I'll go check it out.

I will send a email to the factory again and see if they have submitted products for any other testing and if they have get the results to you as soon as I can

I'd like that. Cool!

 

[scotinexcile]

Because the writer saw a vest, thinks it's cool, and bought it, and is telling people it is a good idea.

What experience did the writer have with the vest? Am I missing something? The writer is sharing that they saw a product that they think is worth buying. That is it. They don't have any experience beyond that. They haven't crashed in the vest.

Maybe they are just saying it is a good idea? Not trying to "convert" or "convince" other to buy just saying their piece?

I'm not sure if we agree or disagree. I think that many riders compare quantifiable numbers before purchasing a motorcycle (exhaust systems too) before buying because they want the best (even though the average rider wouldn't be able to tell the difference in performance between an R1 or GSXR1k), but other than a DOT helmet, they do not do the same thing with riding gear.

They may compare numbers but I would take a safe bet that most buy on the way it looks and peer reviews more than manufacturers numbers or test data? Have a look around BARF for pasts that say "Anyone got experience with XXX Bike"

I'll go check it out.

Direct link to 1 of the threads

I'd like that. Cool!

email sent, they dont start until about 6pm Pacific time so hopefully I should have a answer either way by this evening I talked with a European supplier and she said the vests are CE certified to the 89/686 PPE standard but I cant find any info on what levels they require to get that certification

 

[Archimedes]

Enchanter, honest question here, not trying to be a dick. Did you click on the link in one of my posts above that linked to the info about the sensor recordings on Marquez's airbag suit in his Mugello crash? Given the insane g forces recorded on his body, does it surprise you that his injuries weren't more severe? Do you think the airbag had anything to do with the fact that he walked away relatively unscathed below the chin from a 210mph crash with multiple ridiculously high G forces on his torso? I know it's just another anecdote, but my question is, do you think the airbag had anything to do with the relatively positive outcome of his crash?

 

[KnifeySpoony]

It makes me wonder why many people hanging their hat on the 'neck stabilization'?

Because being a quad is orders of magnitude worse than paraplegia.

Given the insane g forces recorded on his body, does it surprise you that his injuries weren't more severe?

25G isn't that much at all. I would assume the deceleration was much greater (the sensors were maxed out). Snell 2010 standard for helmets allows for 275G, and their testing uses an impact at about 7m/s (about 15mph).

 

[Archimedes]

More anecdotal evidence from Cycle World.

"In 2011, all Alpinestars-supported MotoGP riders began wearing the Tech Air Race suit. Marquez’s survival of this tremendous crash has stimulated discussion of making such airbag suits mandatory in the series."

 

[scotinexcile]

More anecdotal evidence from Cycle World.

"In 2011, all Alpinestars-supported MotoGP riders began wearing the Tech Air Race suit. Marquez’s survival of this tremendous crash has stimulated discussion of making such airbag suits mandatory in the series."

I think they need to make them a bit more affordable before making them mandatory. 4 or more suits a season is a big chunk of change for a smaller CRT team

 

[Archimedes]

25G isn't that much at all. I would assume the deceleration was much greater (the sensors were maxed out). Snell 2010 standard for helmets allows for 275G, and their testing uses an impact at about 7m/s (about 15mph).

I dunno, in the Air Force rocket sled tests, some pretty shitty things happened to their test pilot at around 45Gs of deceleration.

 

[KnifeySpoony]

I dunno, in the Air Force rocket sled tests, some pretty shitty things happened to their test pilot at around 45Gs of deceleration.

I think the duration is key. I'm not sure if the high G numbers used in helmet testing would be transmitted to the head inside. I'll have to read their testing procedures. Wikipedia says short term impacts of 100+G are known to be survivable. Take that as you may. 275G is in another ballpark for sure.

 

[scotinexcile]

I'd like that. Cool!

Just got a reply, No more testing done as yet

 

[Enchanter]

Enchanter, honest question here, not trying to be a dick. Did you click on the link in one of my posts above that linked to the info about the sensor recordings on Marquez's airbag suit in his Mugello crash? Given the insane g forces recorded on his body, does it surprise you that his injuries weren't more severe? Do you think the airbag had anything to do with the fact that he walked away relatively unscathed below the chin from a 210mph crash with multiple ridiculously high G forces on his torso? I know it's just another anecdote, but my question is, do you think the airbag had anything to do with the relatively positive outcome of his crash?

I'm sure the the airbag did something. I want to know exactly what it did.

I'm out.

 

[Archimedes]

Me too. I think this discussion has run it's course. And I hope I never have an 'anecdote' of my own to post in here. (Knocking wood.)

 

[MtnRider]

One last thing... my adopted daughter crashed in her race this last Sunday. I've never been so scared when I was waiting for her to come down the front straight- and she never showed up.
I'm giving up a race weekend for myself to buy her one of the Racer vests for her birthday, because I believe it will help keep her safe.

Ignoring all of the two year old sniveling and cry baby statements this is something that stuck out to me. Regardless if you like it or not, someone buying a piece of protective equiptment for another is good work