Secret motorcycle industry panel looks for ways to reverse sagging sales

[FXCLM5]

unfortunately i do not think it can be saved

its sad

this is just the beginning, owning personal cars will no longer be a depreciating asset in the future either.

 

[jwb]

Speaking up when we see other riders acting in ways that build a negative impression of motorcycling is highly recommended. As riders, we inherently might understand when a rider is acting out, making excessive noise, or “weaponizing” their motorcycle in public, but these actions diminish the perception of motorcycling to the 95% of the population that do not ride. The same can be said of many enthusiast-based businesses, such as skateboarding, bicycles, sports fans, etc - with those industries working hard to shift negative perceptions from the general public.

...

 

[rsrider]

The LA Times is one of the few mainstream publications that have MC related news stories that don't involve crashes or hooligan/criminal behavior. A lot of what was mentioned in the article is true, but the main problem that I see is not on the industry side, but on the government side. The licensing should be structured like Europe. There should be universal lane sharing through out the country. Helmets should be mandatory and certification should be standardized along the lines of ECE 2. As should emissions and safety standards. Basically, adopt Euro policies when dealing with MC's, and you will get more people riding. The outlaw/rickyracer image BS needs to go, because it is all fantasy anyways. Make motorcycles a means of utilitarian transportation. There are plenty of things that can be done to make MC riding more practical, safe, and appealing.

 

[mrzuzzo]

The LA Times is one of the few mainstream publications that have MC related news stories that don't involve crashes or hooligan/criminal behavior. A lot of what was mentioned in the article is true, but the main problem that I see is not on the industry side, but on the government side. The licensing should be structured like Europe. There should be universal lane sharing through out the country. Helmets should be mandatory and certification should be standardized along the lines of ECE 2. As should emissions and safety standards. Basically, adopt Euro policies when dealing with MC's, and you will get more people riding. The outlaw/rickyracer image BS needs to go, because it is all fantasy anyways. Make motorcycles a means of utilitarian transportation. There are plenty of things that can be done to make MC riding more practical, safe, and appealing.

I disagree. Maybe that would work in some cities, but there already is a diff license category for scooters. Also, cars are cheaper than MCs to own in the USA, so it doesn't really make any sense to choose a MC over a car.

I think motorcycles need to be made safer. The current millennial "snowflake" generation perceives MCs as a dangerous stupid activity. And let's be honest, it is pretty sketchy to ride MCs in a country full of F-150s and Escalades.
Better availability of airbag-type gear, or even airbags built into MCs would help, as would stricter penalties for injuring MC riders.

 

[bpw]

I don't see how motors can compete as utilitarian transportation anywhere except a few cities with lots of traffic and temperate climates year round.

Most places in this country either have no traffic so a car is easier or the weather is either too hot or cold for a major portion of the year so you need to buy a car anyways.

As for recreational use, there is a lot more competition for peoples fun these days. A lot of folks who would have been riding motos or dirt bikes 40 years ago are going to be on mountain bikes or climbing or surfing these days instead. I pretty much stopped riding on dirt since it was way more cost and hassle than doing other things that I find just as fun.

Blaming it on "snowflake" millenials is both silly and counter-productive. Climbing, surfing, mountain biking etc are all growing rapidly (especially among women), and who wants to join a sport/hobby full of old guys talking shit about the young folks in an effort to make themselves feel like tough guys?

 

[khill]

Thank you to all that are participating on this topic, both on this thread and behind the scenes. These conversations are exactly what needs to happen - Visible open conversation.

There are a myriad number of issues and bringing them out in grassroots conversations like this are fantastic. I've been collecting my thoughts on this for quite some time and will post after reading the GAS reports a bit more.

Ken

 

[aminalmutha]

This showed up as a concept bike at a recent show.

Pretty darn sexy, even if it never touches the dirt.

https://rideapart.com/articles/moto-guzzi-brings-passion-unveils-concept-v85

I'd dry hump that.

 

[BeksNY]

As a woman rider married to another rider (and who might someday have kids who add to the next generation of riders), this article really struck a chord with me. It kinda hit the nail on the head for me, when I think about the missed opportunities with women riders and the implications for future customers.

I tend to think that the industry really misses out on cross-marketing with other brands that *are* appealing to millennials and women, especially. E.g., Trying to sell dirt bikes? Why not cross-market with REI and the brands its stores sell? Demonstrate that motorcycling can be recreational and a way to get outdoors.

The dealership experience for women should not be underestimated. I've walked out of dealerships because they spent the whole time trying to sell my partner/spouse on a bike that I was there to buy for myself. I've also walked out when my spouse was asked what he rides and then the salesperson changes topics, without bothering to ask what I ride. Do me the courtesy of assuming that I ride, even if we happen to arrive two-up.

Additionally, if the answer to "What do you ride?" is, "I don't yet." Engage in conversation with her about what she might be looking for or what is holding her back from riding now. If it's a fear of not being able to flatfoot it, steer her toward lower bikes as starter bikes. She might be a harder sell and might not buy a bike that day, but the positive feeling she'll have about your respect for her as a potential rider will make her consider buying from you instead of someone else. Guaranteed.

 

[Holeshot]

You guys are off on how HD and Indian are treating and marketing to women riders.

That being said, discretionary income is down and has been down for about a decade. Motorcycle leasing would help move product. Incentive programs (buy with a friend, save money, etc) should be attempted. Trade in programs won’t move up bikes are important as well. Demo bikes, (for a full weekend) are good lead programs as well.

Overall, the Moto industry should look to other industries with like circumstances and see what the similarities are and what can be grepped from those industries for use in the Moto industry.

My program would be the “buy with a friend” and a Moto class Saturday, ride Sunday on demo bikes. If you’re sales people can’t close sales from that, we’re really really fucked.

One other thing: we don’t have a product problem, we have an optics and life relevance program. Those in the industry who have figured that out are faring better than those who are still only focused on product.

 

[Surj]

You guys are off on how HD and Indian are treating and marketing to women riders.

I don't have time to weigh in on all the stuff here, from the nonsense pre- and post-article that doesn't even deserve more than a head-shake, to the more thoughtful stuff from many. As noted, I was one of the people invited to the roundtable. I wrote quite a bit about this in the January CityBike which started hitting shops this week, particularly in the context of IMS Long Beach.

The way Harley's (and BMW's) booth was staffed and treated female attendees was head and shoulders above most others, from Ducati with their "classy" women to others with the painfully stereotypical off-duty strippers being leered at by dudes getting them to do selfies with 'em. Candidly, it'd fucking stupid and disgusting how women are still just enticements, decorations, bait—and no wonder women are put off by motorcycling, when you consider this utter lack of respect scaled up to moto-marketing in general.

In the Harley booth, women were people, not accessories.

That's just one issue, of course. I'd encourage anyone who cares to read the report and the transcript (and the background report) instead of just media coverage. The meeting and the docs that came out of it aren't perfect, and are just a start, and there are certainly others doing good things—but the media coverage doesn't get nearly to the depth these topics deserve.

 

[packnrat]

want to sell more motos, in three easy steps.

advertizing showing " normal people doing normal things".

build good reliable motos. not ultra fast bikes.
basic 1960 tech.
no computers. can two cylinders work on a magnito system?

cc from 100 up to 500.
set up for " joy rides" not speed.

low cost but good insurance. low intrest loans.

remember you want entrey level people here. so there incomes are low.

.

 

[rsrider]

want to sell more motos, in three easy steps.

advertizing showing " normal people doing normal things".

build good reliable motos. not ultra fast bikes.
basic 1960 tech.
no computers. can two cylinders work on a magnito system?

cc from 100 up to 500.
set up for " joy rides" not speed.

low cost but good insurance. low intrest loans.

remember you want entrey level people here. so there incomes are low.

.

There is no reason to buy MC's that don't have state of the art electronics, EFI, and safety features like ABS and TC. This is the 21st century. IF you want people to ride, you don't put them on a POS with mid 20th century tech and expect them to have a good time. How many people do you know that can even change the oil in their car? How many auto shop classes are still available at your local HS? How much time do beginner riders have to fuck around with mechanics if they aren't already into it? Safety and reliability needs to have priority when when it comes to any modern means of transportation. ABS (safety) and EFI (emission standards) should be standard on all street MC's being sold.

 

[FXCLM5]

guys please look into your local county/cities laws about hybrid vehilcles or eco co2 gas emissions

motos are not here to stay - they ARE NOT

my retarded county has imposed ridiculous reductions to c02 emissions - due to wine country snobbs

"Hancock’s group released a report last week saying Sonoma County needs to put 138,000 EVs on the road by 2030 to meet local greenhouse gas reduction goals. There are now about 4,500 here, the report estimated"

that 138k is seriously almost 50%+/- of sonoma countys population

is YOUR local goverment supporting motos? does your town have moto only spots or more bike lanes, the entire perception of motorcycling has gave away to bikes in my town thanks to levi running the ca wine bike tour right through my fn town

 

[Gabe]

want to sell more motos, in three easy steps.

advertizing showing " normal people doing normal things".

build good reliable motos. not ultra fast bikes.
basic 1960 tech.
no computers. can two cylinders work on a magnito system?

cc from 100 up to 500.
set up for " joy rides" not speed.

low cost but good insurance. low intrest loans.

remember you want entrey level people here. so there incomes are low.

.

LOL sounds just like Royal Enfield.

Moto insurance is cheap, credit unions and GE financial and other financers offer low-interest loans, RE models are 500-650cc, for sure not fast, but very easy to ride.

Royal Enfield probably sells a few thousand bikes a year here in a population of 320 million. That describes Yamaha's SR400, the Honda Grom, and probably a dozen other models I could come up with.

Of course, you can't be too low tech without running afoul of EPA and CARB regulations. That's a good thing, as most 20-somethings struggle with just checking tire pressure.

 

[Holeshot]

Gabe, interesting phenomena (the 20 year old thing). Do you think the lack of competency is a desire thing or an upbringing thing? iOW, would they want to learn how to do things like basic maintenance, given the education and opportunity?

 

[Gabe]

Gabe, interesting phenomena (the 20 year old thing). Do you think the lack of competency is a desire thing or an upbringing thing? iOW, would they want to learn how to do things like basic maintenance, given the education and opportunity?

I think the quick answer is "some of them." But the great majority of people - not just those in their 20s - wants nothing to do with building/fixing stuff. It's much easier to buy a thing that just works until it breaks, and then buy a new thing.

I learned how to work on bikes when I was racing. Not because I wanted to, but because I had to! When I can afford it, I often pay somebody to fix my stuff.

An interesting phenomena that's at odds with this trend is the young hipster buying old 70s Hondas and riding them. So there will always be a small group of people into wrenching/riding/customizing/racing, but it won't be the numbers of days past, when we had to have 2-wave starts in AFM 250 Production.

My personal take is the industry will shrink to its pre 1970s size and motorcyclists will be seen once again as greasy outcasts and weirdos. I for one am okay with that.

 

[DataDan]

"Low tech"--meaning 1960's tech--isn't necessary for inexpensive motorcycles. Carburetors are over. Mechanical ignition is over. Programmed fuel injection and ignition, along with catalytic converters are here to stay.

Pricey gimcracks filter down until they become baseline, thanks to investment, innovation, and volume. I've heard that there are no more roll-up car windows, because electrics are now less expensive.

In addition, today's entry-level bikes need less attention than 1960s bikes did. That would seem to suit them well to potential riders who are less adept at or interested in working on mechanical stuff.

My personal take is the industry will shrink to its pre 1970s size and motorcyclists will be seen once again as greasy outcasts and weirdos. I for one am okay with that.

A showdown is coming, not too far in the future, between two factions within motorcycling. On one side are those who want it to remain a healthy industry offering an incomparable recreation opportunity for many while supporting the livelihoods of some. On the other are those who see it as too dangerous, a burden on society that should be limited in size, but who, predictably, do not exclude themselves.

New thread on this tangent coming soon.

 

[jwb]

Fuel injection is way cheaper than a carburetor anyway. The carburetor is a ridiculous Rube Goldberg thing with fifty moving parts, that barely works and needs constant maintenance. Anyway, fuel injection has been around for 70 years. It's hardly newfangled.

 

[norcalkid]

I don't think the issue is price. There tons of affordable used bikes on Craig list and my insurance is $103 a year.

IMO it just comes down to safety. 9 outa 10 people I speak with mention safety if talking about bikes/my bike/riding. Riding is dangerous, no question about that. I don't care if you have the best gear, your putting yourself out there at risk.

 

[Gabe]

I don't think the issue is price. There tons of affordable used bikes on Craig list and my insurance is $103 a year.

IMO it just comes down to safety. 9 outa 10 people I speak with mention safety if talking about bikes/my bike/riding. Riding is dangerous, no question about that. I don't care if you have the best gear, your putting yourself out there at risk.

You just spurred a thought. I'm thinking of the millions and millions of Baby Boomer dads, granddads, uncles and older cousins that were hurt/killed on motorcycles, resulting in far more anecdotal evidence of motorcycle danger to millennials than Baby Boomers had in the 60s and 70s. Maybe they're not more risk adverse, just more aware of the dangers? Who doesn't know an older relative injured in a moto crash?