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Sometimes you're the bat in life. Other times, the ball.

Kim, correct me if I'm wrong:

Rake = a straight line drawn through the steering head extended all the way to the floor.

Trail = the distance between a vertical line drawn through the front axle, extended to the floor, then measured from that point - to the point where the Rake line contacts the floor.

that right?

The R has a 67.3 degree steering head angle. The Standard has 66.1 Both bikes share the same wheel base, but they have different length forks. The upper triple is different on the R (two bar perch positions), but I'm not sure about the offset. On the R the offset is 28mm. Not sure on the Standard.

We just bagged tomorrow's track day at Thunderhill. Motor swap, parts swap, then it goes to Gerry.
 
Eric, you're correct with your descriptions of rake and trail. Basically, the more rake you have, the more trail you get.

But I think my assumptions are reversed in regards to the rake of the two bikes. Typically, when referring to the rake of a sportbike, it is around 24 degrees (give or take). The SD/R are listed in the 60 degree range. This makes me believe that KTM is using the "other half" of a 90 degree base as their measurement. So 67.3 degrees is really a 22.7 degree rake (67.3 +22.7=90), and 66.1 is really a 23.9 degree rake.

Meaning, using the SD frame is the way to go. I would get some custom clamps made/adapted, so you can get even more trail. 4 or 5 mm less offset.

The forks are 48 mm where it goes into the top triple; same as a gsxr6/7. Maybe the bottom diameter is the same? What is center to center of the fork legs? Custom GSXR triples from Attack might be the ticket!!!!
 
Why don't you help ME like this Kim??????!!!!
 
Don't you start with me Berto....God you get my frikcin blood boiling!!!!!! I TRY TO HELP YOU BUT YOU WON'T LISTEN TO ME.....aaarrrrggghhh!!!
 
frame

l was told that the frame was different and the rear shock was longer but according to the spec it is the other way around with the shock. but why would the SDR have less ground clearance, the SD scraps the ground to easy

the print spec l have
SD head angle 23.9 trail 3.96"
SDR head angle 22.7 trail 3.69"

GOGO, does your bike have the gas fork cartridge inside or stock internals ?

l plan on running PRC V front on saturday which is alot taller than the tyre l have at the moment so that should add some height to the front so l will see if that will help
 
No gas cartridge anything in those forks. The bike actually showed up here with a lot less stuff on it/in it than we were told it had. Maybe the cartridges went the same place the slipper clutch did, and all the parts were carried out in the belly pan? Either way I couldn't care less right now. I just slept better in one night than I have since we got this R.

New direction :party
 
bikes

hopefully the rain will keep away saturday and l will try and push the thing hard to see what happens ( hopefully not losing the front )
l will try a few different setups and see what happens, hopefully report back sunday
are going to get the SD measured by your GUY to see if the numbers add up ?


on another note l have been trying to find a KTM team that does the SDR support for the BSB rounds and try and get some setup info from them, l dont think they can change the triples but l am sure they must have some good info to share, 20 SDR's on the grid some one must have good set up info.
 
KimDN said:
The SD/R are listed in the 60 degree range. This makes me believe that KTM is using the "other half" of a 90 degree base as their measurement. So 67.3 degrees is really a 22.7 degree rake (67.3 +22.7=90), and 66.1 is really a 23.9 degree rake.

Meaning, using the SD frame is the way to go. I would get some custom clamps made/adapted, so you can get even more trail. 4 or 5 mm less offset.
Click to expand...

Kim, your assumptions are correct, KTM have swapped the degree measurements. Gerry Piazza's measurements confirm KTM's SDR published specs are accurate. The print out for my bike is attached. I also agree with your suggestion regarding reducing the offset to ~24mm, and gaining the resulting increase in trail.

SDR rake = 22.8mm
SDR trail = 92.9mm
SDR offset = 28.74mm
SDR swing arm angle 8.1 degrees
SDR shock E2E = 396mm

Shortest path to raceable geometry seems to be:

SDR engine swap into the SD frame to gain zoot.
Emig triple clamps, has 29mm offset but with deeper collars to gain trail and ridehieght.
SDR shock + the ride height adjustable cleavis to gain downangle and ride height.
Krylon orange paint for the frame to gain KTM mojo.
 

Attachments

  • SDR_GPFrame.jpg
    SDR_GPFrame.jpg
    90.2 KB · Views: 34
set up

Just spoke to Terry at Hm racing UK, super nice guy and he gave me some set up info
because of the SD cup rules they couldn't change a lot but they did not have the problem you are having GOGO, the said the bikes were very stable and never had front tuck issues
He said the main thing was getting the spring/weight correct
they ran K tech valves in the front and the stock R shock ( which he confirmed is 9mm longer )
front
8mm BS 28mm RS
rear
28mm BS 43 RS
HSC out 1 3/4
LSC out 17 clicks
R 19 clicks
 
INFO

l spoke to Jamie @ https://www.gpmotoservices.net/ they are the US importer for WP, l talked to him mostly about my Gas kit and what l need to do it make it work, my sag #'s don't seam to add up it might be to heavy a spring or he said that the WP forks really like the WP full sen 5 W oil, if you use other stuff it just does not want to work and my fork fills like it is just not working well on the Comp/rebound, the front seams to stiff/slow to match the rear ( my rear #'s are good and it fills ok ) so l think this is what is causing the bike not to finish a corner
GOGO call Jamie he seams like he has been around WP enough to understand what is going on ( he has some riders in the AMA/DMG SS class and will be at some rounds )

sorry if l am thread jacking.
 
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This thread is fucking awesome. The collaboration is incredible!

GoGo/Rob, don't you wish you could just talk to Herfoss or his mechanic? :)

I can't wait to read the next ride report.
 
Hey guys i have the Emig top triple clamp om my standard Sd. it is part of the steering dampner set-up the part is made very nice. but you will have to adjust your steering stops, to keep the bottom corner of the clamp from hittin the top frame rail. I filed about 1/8" from each corner. and put in shallow head bolts to gain as much steering lock as possible. you will also have to add a 20mm spacer to the stud the the dampner arm moves on. the bars are also raised about 1" but the cables and wires still reach and move ok Hope this helps.. Tim
 
that ktm guy said:
Hey guys i have the Emig top triple clamp om my standard Sd. it is part of the steering dampner set-up the part is made very nice. but you will have to adjust your steering stops, to keep the bottom corner of the clamp from hittin the top frame rail. I filed about 1/8" from each corner. and put in shallow head bolts to gain as much steering lock as possible. you will also have to add a 20mm spacer to the stud the the dampner arm moves on. the bars are also raised about 1" but the cables and wires still reach and move ok Hope this helps.. Tim
Click to expand...

I would really like Emig or Nichols to make a custom part, with 6mm less offset (~25mm) , and move the pinch bolt location to the outer part of the fork tube? I can't really get a look at the Nichols clamp In Eric's pictures? On second thought, maybe I'll just stick with the stock triples put the frame in a jig and uhm, "ADJUST" the frame's head angle ala Carry Andrews.
 
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UPDATE -

Entire hybrid STD Suerduke to Superduke R project on HOLD. Why?

AMA Daytona Sportbike, Laguna Seca, July 4th.

Before anyone asks if we're nuts, please re-check yourself. We already determined this years ago...

The idea of running this bike in the AMA was brought up to me by my good friend Bob Robbins. Anyone remember Bob from the few weeks just before AMA Infineon 2008? Do the words "Triumph, AMA Formula Extreme, GoGo gets a ride, big excitement followed by huge last second let down" ring a bell for anyone? Yes, Bob owned that Triumph team last year, and no it did not work out for us getting the chance to ride for him. But the seed got planted well enough back then for Bob to call me two months ago suggesting we run at Laguna. After we both stopped laughing, Bob actually said he was serious. Then he offered to help us make it happen. I never said much about it here, or anywhere for that matter. After all consider how out of left field this idea actually is. Then imagine how many planets would have to get aligned just right in order to pull it off. But the AMA said the bike fit, as long as it's an 08 and not an 09 - under the grandfather clause. So we submitted pages and pages of paperwork and the phones heated up for weeks. Then we got another call, from the AMA, asking just who in the love of hell gave us this insane idea - because no Superduke has ever been homologated for this class. When I forwarded them their own email from two months ago, there was a slight pause. Then came the deadly blow anyway - "No ticky no shirty"

"What do you guys need in order for a bike to be homologated?" we asked Al Luddington. He said they need a complete motorcycle, that you don't get back, or they need this laundry list of critical parts - also which you don't get back ("cylinder head complete (front or rear), throttle body assembly complete, air box assembly complete, cam shafts (1 intake, 1 exhaust), 1 piston and rod assembly complete (rings, pin, clips), 1 crankshaft, 1 transmission assembly complete. Service manual and parts book will be needed as well.")

When I got that email forwarded to me I figured what the hell I may as well start having ice cream for breakfast again. No chance in hell that's gonna happen. Once again - "so close, yet so far." I even thought about filing a cruelty to animals complaint with the AMA. ...I'm an animal.

Then Mike Meisner, one of the owners of Tri Valley Moto, called me yesterday and said the following "GoGo, KTM is sending them a bike."


Well holy hell it looks like this might actually happen after all. Or at least it's closer than ever.

So since KTM is sending them a Standard Superduke, that is what we will be racing. Our hybrid project is now on hold. I will try to see if we can get the Nichols triple clamp homologated as well because that is such a critical piece to our Superduke puzzle.

More to come...:thumbup
 
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GoGo said:
UPDATE -

Entire hybrid STD Suerduke to Superduke R project on HOLD. Why?

AMA Daytona Sportbike, Laguna Seca, July 4th.

Before anyone asks if we're nuts, please re-check yourself. We already determined this years ago...

The idea of running this bike in the AMA was brought up to me by my good friend Bob Robbins. Anyone remember Bob from the few weeks just before AMA Infineon 2008? Do the words "Triumph, AMA Formula Extreme, GoGo gets a ride, big excitement followed by huge last second let down" ring a bell for anyone? Yes, Bob owned that Triumph team last year, and no it did not work out for us getting the chance to ride for him. But the seed got planted well enough back then for Bob to call me two months ago suggesting we run at Laguna. After we both stopped laughing, Bob actually said he was serious. Then he offered to help us make it happen. I never said much about it here, or anywhere for that matter. After all consider how out of left field this idea actually is. Then imagine how many planets would have to get aligned just right in order to pull it off. But the AMA said the bike fit, as long as it's an 08 and not an 09 - under the grandfather clause. So we submitted pages and pages of paperwork and the phones heated up for weeks. Then we got another call, from the AMA, asking just who in the love of hell gave us this insane idea - because no Superduke has ever been homologated for this class. When I forwarded them their own email from two months ago, there was a slight pause. Then came the deadly blow anyway - "No ticky no shirty"

"What do you guys need in order for a bike to be homologated?" we asked Al Luddington. He said they need a complete motorcycle, that you don't get back, or they need this laundry list of critical parts - also which you don't get back ("cylinder head complete (front or rear), throttle body assembly complete, air box assembly complete, cam shafts (1 intake, 1 exhaust), 1 piston and rod assembly complete (rings, pin, clips), 1 crankshaft, 1 transmission assembly complete. Service manual and parts book will be needed as well.")

When I got that email forwarded to me I figured what the hell I may as well start having ice cream for breakfast again. No chance in hell that's gonna happen. Once again - "so close, yet so far." I even thought about filing a cruelty to animals complaint with the AMA. ...I'm an animal.

Then Mike Meisner, one of the owners of Tri Valley Moto, called me yesterday and said the following "GoGo, KTM is sending them a bike."


Well holy hell it looks like this might actually happen after all. Or at least it's closer than ever.

So since KTM is sending them a Standard Superduke, that is what we will be racing. Our hybrid project is now on hold. I will try to see if we can get the Nichols triple clamp homologated as well because that is such a critical piece to our Superduke puzzle.

More to come...:thumbup
Click to expand...

So I take it the AMA needs this bike from KTM to act as a standard of how your bike "should" be set up, just in case someone requests an inspection? Will you be able to be competitive on a standard S Duke, I thought you guys were developing the "R"?
 
Holy shit! If they get a bike homogulated, I think I'd actually have to go to an AMA race to see you rock it. :thumbup
 
Holy hoops Batman, happy you might join that circus, sad that it's really a traveling circus.
 
Dude, that would be so excellent to see you riding at the usgp - I'll cheer you on from my corner!! (I'll be turn-working it!)

--Simon
 
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