Sometimes you're the bat in life. Other times, the ball.

[Z3n]

OK boys and girls let's take a ride on Mr. Trolly over to Gerry Piazza's GP Frame & Wheel, where today we hope to learn just what in the name of shit is wrong with our KTM Superduke R.​

"Ahh, so you get that shit moving around...that's very technical."

Thanks for the video...entertaining and informative.

 

[sbk62]

Eric,

I just read your race report, which made me feel really bad for coming to your pit last Sunday and yakking it up with Phil. You didn't seem your jovial self, but I had no idea what a monumentally lousy day you were having. My apologies for my crappy timing and distracting Phil with questions and complaints about my SDR's shit moving around.

Thanks for sharing the video.

 

[Catfish]

So the swimming feeling you felt in the carousel was most likely due to the tweaked triple clamps, huh? Do you guys have an idea as to which HMC rider had that bike. Troy Herfoss or Chris Fillmore (or John Lewis, although I think he was only on a regular SuperDuke in '07)? Not that it really matters, just curious.

edit: Now I read that even before Herfoss or Fillmore ran it, HMC ran it up in a Canadian series with either Erick Beausejour or Michael Leon. I've always heard that those Canadian tracks are damn rough! Wonder if the triples got tweaked just riding up there? :-0

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=32667


I guess it would be nice to have something like this, eh?

 

[GoGo]

I actually think we (I) tweeked the triples in the turn 3 crash. I know we did actually because we had to loosen everything up and set it straight again. I've always known you can do this but Gerry taught me that you really only can do that for about half a degree of twist. Anything more than that you're wasting your time because "It'll come right back in one lap."

As for who rode our R, what they did to the bike, and where - I don't think we'll ever get answers to those questions. No one is responding from the HMC camp. There were multiple bikes though, and ours actually had been crashed. Marks on the lower fork leg. Hmmm, I bet I can guess how those got there...

 

[BIG186]

GoGo,

What's that saying about if everything was easy, stuff not being fun? Well that's B.S. here! I look forward to the write up about you getting on the podium.

-Tim

 

[Zerox]

What are your thought on handlebar position potentially causing a loss of front-end feedback? On a bike with old-school tubular handlebars, you sit up higher and could possibly lose some feeling from the front if you're not used to that sort of thing.

That pic is a perfect example that shows the different body position between a bike like yours with the sit-up riding position, and the black/white bike beside you that has much lower clipons. Any merit to my hypothesis?

 

[GoGo]

Zerox, can't thank you enough for your thoughts. I can see your point - more weight up front, more focus, maybe more feel. But honestly I don't think that's the end of it. At least that's not how it feels. In fact in an odd way I think we may get more feedback through those long bars..

Exaggerate your mental picture of it - forks with one inch bars attached, forks with five foot bars attached. Now imagine the front tire beginning to tuck, ever so slightly. One inch bars will move a little, five foot bars will move a lot. Movement = feel (to me anyway).

Catfish actually shot video of our crash in F-1. So strange where the front tire let go - after the apex. Gerry measuring the bike set me at ease about why we crashed though. And Nichols Manufacturing is actually designing/fabricating a new upper triple clamp for us now. Next race will be a very different experience..

We hope

 

[Holeshot]

I'm gonna hide out in here with you Eric while the mob passes by!

 

[jrace]

And Nichols Manufacturing is actually designing/fabricating a new upper triple clamp for us now. Next race will be a very different experience..

We hope

Will the new triple have the proper fork extender cloaking device?

-jim

 

[Zerox]

I can see your point - more weight up front, more focus, maybe more feel. But honestly I don't think that's the end of it. At least that's not how it feels.

I only brought that up because I did like a jillion track days with a Bandit 1200 that probably wasn't too far off from the seat-peg-bar seating position your racebike has.

I remember when I hopped off that bike onto a lean-forward bike with clipons, the front end feel seemed greatly magnified.

That would seem a bigger factor than a mere 6mm of fork height, but most normal people can't ride at the edge of traction like you so perhaps I'm talking about something I know nothing about.

 

[Z3n]

Will the new triple have the proper fork extender cloaking device?

-jim

I hear it prevents the shit from moving around.

 

[com3]

In fact in an odd way I think we may get more feedback through those long bars..

+1!! after riding sportybiles for many years, then making the transition to a streetfighter for a buncha thousand more miles (fit with pro-tapers), i must say...i'll never go back to clip-ons ever again.

 

[GoGo]

That would seem a bigger factor than a mere 6mm of fork height, but most normal people can't ride at the edge of traction like you so perhaps I'm talking about something I know nothing about.

I actually don't think 6mm of drop in the front is what did us in entirely. In my opinion, maybe because I'm such a fat ass, the Superduke is inherently steep right out of the crate. At least that's how I felt when I rode a stocker in the mountain twisties. To me it felt like the front tire was under the radiator. THAT'S why the sudden phantom extra 6mm killed us. We were already way too steep, then we simply fell off a cliff.

As for the fork extender cloaking device, all hope is lost on that. I was thinking way ahead, to the very outside chance we might one day get to run this this beast in the ama. They see a different triple it'll cost us $500 to homoligate it (at least that's how I think it works).

 

[Catfish]

I actually don't think 6mm of drop in the front is what did us in entirely. In my opinion, maybe because I'm such a fat ass, the Superduke is inherently steep right out of the crate. At least that's how I felt when I rode a stocker in the mountain twisties. To me it felt like the front tire was under the radiator. THAT'S why the sudden phantom extra 6mm killed us. We were already way too steep, then we simply fell off a cliff.

I'll second the impression of the Superduke being steep (or having the front tire under the radiator). I rode one for a session at Infineon back on March 30th and I was a bit tentative in leaning to my knee in the carousel. I'm still trying to get my ADD strickened mind to grab a clear picture of trail and rake and all those factors but to me, it is too bad the KTM Superduke R didn't have some kind of concentric in the upper bracket to adjust (like some of your previous weapons had).

So Eric, what are the differences again between the triples on the regular model and the R model? When you described Phil as saying..“The triple clamps on this R are SIX MILIMETERS higher than the ones on the other bike…”.... is he actually saying the top triple is 6mm thicker? Thus, when you put the fork tops flush with the top of the R's triple you've got the differing rake/trail than when you're flush with the regular Superduke's upper triple? Or is the steering tube meatier or thicker? And for accurate comparison, are the offsets the same?

You sure proved on the regular Superduke that you could get the front to stick at BW. The quick transition at Cotton Corners doesn't exactly mirror turn 3 or 9 at Infineon but I'd think that with the R as you had it last round, you might have found some problems going through the Cotton. Then again, once Gerry straightens the R's triples and/or fork tubes, all may be good, eh?

Another thing, what size rear tire are you running? I've read that the fatter the rear tire, the more need for longer trail. Maybe try a 180 and see how the bike reacts??

.............Catfish actually shot video of our crash in F-1. So strange where the front tire let go - after the apex.........

For those looking for it, it's about 1/5th from the end of the GP frame video below:

OK boys and girls let's take a ride on Mr. Trolly over to Gerry Piazza's GP Frame & Wheel, where today we hope to learn just what in the name of shit is wrong with our KTM Superduke R.​

 

[Catfish]

Also, you're pretty sure that you didn't touch down the belly just prior to tuck, right? Unfortunately the resolution of the footage run via my computer doesn't allow for diciphering whether there was any airspace there between the belly pan and the tarmac. With the rake/trail as such, the slightest brush could have lifted traction off the already compromised front. If the whole thing can't be raised easily, what about a narrower angle on the belly? Is it possible?

 

[GoGo]

Alright I've got it all worked out now...

Countless hours of lost sleep, endless nights of research, and emails from all over the globe have arrived us at

OUR THEORY, IN VIDEO​

 

[Dove]

It sure does look like your bellypan bottomed out, what's the verdict?

BTW - what a great angle!!!

 

[GoGo]

As close as we were, I don't think it was bottoming that put the front off. Although we did scrape the belly pan, we never touched anything hard to the ground, like the exhaust. Plus any time I've lost a battle bottoming out it was the rear that went, not the front. Take a really close look at this image that 4TheRiders sent us. I blew it up and bumped up exposure to help see in the shadows. This was on a good pace, on a good line, and while we were close, we're not dragging anything on the ground (at least anything I can see). We're pretty positive the forks are simply too steep, not enough rake/trail. Plus Gerry Piazza confirmed this with great confidence, which warms my heart.

 

[GoGo]

what are the differences again between the triples on the regular model and the R model? When you described Phil as saying..“The triple clamps on this R are SIX MILIMETERS higher than the ones on the other bike…”....

For some reason which defies any logic I can understand, the R (which we got ) came with an upper triple clamp/fork length combination which set our front 6mm lower than it already was on our Standard Superduke. Both triples are the same thickness, and both set their top fork leg surfaces lower than the steering head nut. But the R clamp is slightly higher, which when you set the fork at it's top surface, drops the bike lower than the Standard model when it's fork is also at the triple clamp's top surface (which in my opinion was already too low).

The triple clamp which Nichols Manufacturing is making will drop 20mm from the top of the surface of the steering head nut. This will allow us to push the forks farther down, which will effectively raise the front of the bike, which will effectively increase many different things:

Ride height
Rake
Trail
Rear swingarm angle

Once we get the height mechanically that we've been after, rather than through internal fork/shock settings, Phil will then be able to valve our suspension in a much more compliant nature



Catfish, rake and trail is pretty simple to understand. Rake is the angle which your front end rotates on. You take an imaginary line and draw it straight through the center of your steering head - all the way to the floor. To get your trail number you draw a vertical line through the center of your front axle - straight to the floor. These two lines will cross before they hit the floor. Your vertical axle line will hit the floor behind your steering head (rake) line. Now you simple measure the distance between the two points.

​

On "average" a successful racebike has a trail number of 102-104, and a rake angle in the neighborhood of 24 degrees. When measured our bike (without me on it even) had 97mm of trail, and 23 degrees of rake.

Think of it like a two year old's tricycle (which has almost NO rake OR trail). At 1mph little Jonny can turn around the couch with ease. But if you strapped a one thousand cc twin under his seat and he tried turning at 50mph... well, you can imagine what would happen. If his tire stuck (which it wouldn't) he would fly over the handlebars in an instant. But if it didn't stick (which it wouldn't) his tricycle would just keep going straight while dragging it's front wheel sideways. But that's because it's a three wheeler. If little Jonny was on two wheels, he'd be on his chin in an instant.


At this point I'd like to introduce you to, Little Jonny..

 

[Holeshot]

I actually don't think 6mm of drop in the front is what did us in entirely. In my opinion, maybe because I'm such a fat ass, the Superduke is inherently steep right out of the crate. At least that's how I felt when I rode a stocker in the mountain twisties. To me it felt like the front tire was under the radiator. THAT'S why the sudden phantom extra 6mm killed us. We were already way too steep, then we simply fell off a cliff.

As for the fork extender cloaking device, all hope is lost on that. I was thinking way ahead, to the very outside chance we might one day get to run this this beast in the ama. They see a different triple it'll cost us $500 to homoligate it (at least that's how I think it works).

Eric, wouldn't you have other issues as well: heavy steering, loss of steering at corner exits? Or was the Duke doing well there?